Bad News About Ilford

[sparx]

Or do I really have to wake up now?

Now, just click the heels of your ruby slippers together three times and repeat after me, "There's no place like home. There's no place like home..."

 

[jovo]

Now, just click the heels of your ruby slippers together three times and repeat after me, "There's no place like home. There's no place like home..."

RATS!!!

 

[jandc]

This is true when one is mass producing the stuff, but I'd be surprised if a scaled back to realistic-for-the market size plant would not be possible and, hopefully, profitable. The problem would be to convince investors (venture capatalist types e.g.) that there is a solid and continuing market for film, paper and chems. BUT....that's the province of the visionary entrepeneur. Not exactly a white knight, cavalry leading, mythical savior, but someone who can expect to make a reasonable return on investment, and most importantly....wants to!!

Or do I really have to wake up now?

Fotokemika, Foma and Forte are adept in producing runs of just a few thousand meters. They can easily produce different emulsions on small runs on their already paid for coating machinery. It's not likely that anyone else is going to invest the capital to set up a new coating factory. As previously stated the coating machines are very large and costly to set up.

The scaled back plants you want are already in existence. The only question is will they survive long enough for the big players to drop out completely and the hoarded discontinued stocks to be consumed and finally give them enough of the smaller market share to remain profitable?

 

[c6h6o3]

They can easily produce different emulsions on small runs on their already paid for coating machinery.

Yeah, but can they make TMax?

 

[jandc]

Have you ever tried Foma 200?

 

[jandc01]

Have you ever tried Foma 200?

Have you ever tried Foma 200? It is a T-grain film. They have the technology to make just about anything. Fotokemika makes a Tech Pan like film. Almost anything is possible. In the end though it doesn't matter because Kodak T-Max and Ilford and Agfa will be gone.

 

[Tom Duffy]

I would continue to buy whatever products you like best. Trying to influence the outcome of "The Last Manufacturer Standing" contest is an exercise in futility. I'll continue to buy from a variety of sources, based on my evaluation of best of breed. This list currently includes Kodak, Ilford and Fuji.

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

Foma 200 is a beautiful film, but it's hardly interchangeable with TMX or TMY. Even though it's a T-grain film, it looks a lot more like a film from the 1930s. Foma 200 is to T-Max 100 as Alvin Langdon Coburn is B&W video.

 

[jandc]

I did not mean to imply that Foma 200 was equivalent to TMax. The point I was trying to make is that the technology to make T Grain films exists in these small factories. This leaves open a lot of possibilities for the future which are as yet untapped. The sky is not really falling.

 

[Eric Rose]

my concern is that once the suppliers dwindle to just a few the prices will begin to climb. Even though the remaining factories will be doing lots more volume than they have done in the past. another opec.

 

[Thomassauerwein]

I got a couple bricks of and tested Efke 25 hoping I could replace my long lost love Agfa 25. It's not even close. To be fair though I tested using my existing process and did not test what may be best for the film. Any suggestions this direction would be appreciated.

 

[gma]

David,

When you say that Foma 200 is like a film from the 1930's do you mean that it isn't panchromatic or something else? I have not tried Foma 200 simply because I thought it would be just another T grain film without any "character". Am I missing out on a good film?

 

[jd callow]

my concern is that once the suppliers dwindle to just a few the prices will begin to climb. Even though the remaining factories will be doing lots more volume than they have done in the past. another opec.

In the world market place the winner often takes all. We as consumers tend to purchase those items that are most affordable and accessible (and in that order). Companies that win the greater share of business quickly gain ever greater advantages in price and distribution over their competitors. Eventually leading to a market place dominated by a very few companies.

Think Miejers and walmart...

The down side for the consumer is that the loss of competition leads to less innovation, variety (Tmax will replace -- fill in the blank -- film) and of course without competition the manufacturer no longer needs to be price competitive.

What we could wind up with is film costing 4.99 a roll (or whatever the marketeers feel is the magic price point) regardless of how cheaply made or grossly marked up.

 

[TPPhotog]

... What we could wind up with is film costing 4.99 a roll (or whatever the marketeers feel is the magic price point) regardless of how cheaply made or grossly marked up.

I think it was Black and White Photography Magazine (might be wrong) that suggested a few months ago that film will survive but we will become a specialist market and would see price increases in the coming months. With the potential demise of Ilford we may see that price increase being much higher than expected.

 

[clogz]

Mmmm some analogue photographers can be fooled all of the time etc.

 

[TPPhotog]

Mmmm some analogue photographers can be fooled all of the time etc.

Wishful thinking in the hope of keeping film I guess.

 

[c6h6o3]

In the end though it doesn't matter because Kodak T-Max and Ilford and Agfa will be gone.

The fact that T-Max and Ilford and Agfa will be gone is precisely why it matters very much. To me, 400TMax is the best black and white film ever made. I wouldn't trade it for Super XX Pan.

Are you telling me that Foma 200 is a viable alternative? That it has properties similar to TMax? If so, then I probably should try it. But in the meantime, I'm embarking on a major TMax stockpiling campaign. If Ilford's biting the big one, Kodak can't be far behind.

 

[jandc]

The fact that T-Max and Ilford and Agfa will be gone is precisely why it matters very much. To me, 400TMax is the best black and white film ever made. I wouldn't trade it for Super XX Pan.

Are you telling me that Foma 200 is a viable alternative? That it has properties similar to TMax? If so, then I probably should try it. But in the meantime, I'm embarking on a major TMax stockpiling campaign. If Ilford's biting the big one, Kodak can't be far behind.

No, I'm not saying that it is anything like Tmax. I am saying that the technology exists in these small factories to make modern films. So anything is possible in a world without Kodak, Ilford etc. We are not looking at the end of film here just a shift in the supply chain to companies that don't need to have multi millions of dollars in sales to justify a product.

A mass hoarding is just going to bring the end so much quicker as sales go into the toilet after everyone has more film than they know what to do with.

So in the end it doesn't matter, the films will be gone, new films will be introduced and people will use them and not really care that Tmax or any other film is no longer made. Just like people are getting along just fine without Super XX, Verichrome etc.

 

[removed account4]

A mass hoarding is just going to bring the end so much quicker as sales go into the toilet after everyone has more film than they know what to do with.

that is a really good point.

2 years ago i bought a ton of tmax ( 4x5 100 sheet ) for a huge job that fell through at the last min ... 9-11 happened and the client vanished ( oh well, at least i have a ton of film, right?). okay , then i also bumped into a friend and bought 20 boxes of tri x because i got them for almost nothing (5x7 - 20 boxes /100 sheets @ 1$ / box) ...

anyways - i have been trying to burn through the film for a 2 years with no light at the end of the tunnel. i know i can't buy more film without shelf space, and i can't see selling it on FEEbay and losing my shirt, so i just shoot sheets of film that i have, and wait.

i wish i didn't have all this film! and i am shooting as much as i can so i could buy some j &c classic, ekfe or foma films, but it ain't gonna happen anytime soon . hopefully THEY will still be around by the time i am ready to buy something to shoot, cause i sure am not going to buy any ilford or kodak films ... they'll only be found "expired and on ebay " ...

 

[kjsphoto]

I couldnt agree with you more. I actually lost sleep. I actually started no longer buying kodak when I heard they were considering no longer making film and I moved to ilford! Now I am just bent. I am goign to have to search for a replacement. I am looking into JandC, Efke and whatever else it out there.

Totally bummed!

 

[jd callow]

I think it was Black and White Photography Magazine (might be wrong) that suggested a few months ago that film will survive but we will become a specialist market and would see price increases in the coming months. With the potential demise of Ilford we may see that price increase being much higher than expected.

Raising prices beyond what the market will bear would sound the death nell for the industry. You and I and many others here might pay a steep premium for our favourite films, but alas we are not the market.

The big players have done their research and know who their customers are and how much they'll pay. To a lesser degree they even know what the customer wants. Unfortunately, what is often wanted is a bright package, nifty name and or the image of more -- not the reality of more.

Ferrari's deliver the reality, where as most people (the market) will settle for go fast stripes, nice rims and a price of 1/10th of the reality. The companies that sell the image cars sell and make a lot more money than those who sell reality.

I suspect for a long time there will be small companies making good product at a price we will pay. I don't expect there to be major breakthroughs or many new advancements in film nor do I expect kodak or Fuji to raise their prices to justify lower demand or to capitalize on their exclusivity. I expect Kodak and fuji to continue to narrow their product line and squeeze out greater cost efficiencies so that they can continue to sell product in quantity at the appropriate price. In other words I expect film will get more expensive from the smaller players (without much advancement in technology), and from the bigger players a lowering of variety and quality and static pricing.

It won't go well for the smaller players.

This is just my overly pessimistic attitude.

 

[mobtown_4x5]

" I am saying that the technology exists in these small factories to make modern films."

I have been trying (not very well) to find some information of this type on another thread. I was not sure if the capabilities were the same.

I wonder if these guys could be able to produce something like Azo, for instance if the demand was there and Kodak gets out alltogether.

Matt

 

[jandc]

" I am saying that the technology exists in these small factories to make modern films."

I have been trying (not very well) to find some information of this type on another thread. I was not sure if the capabilities were the same.

I wonder if these guys could be able to produce something like Azo, for instance if the demand was there and Kodak gets out alltogether.

Matt

These factories were producing AZO like papers 50 years ago. Fotokemika (Efke) produces Techpan like films, infrared films, ortho films, dye transfer matrix film, in addition to their regular line up of films. Foma knows how to make a T-grain film as their Foma 200 shows, in addition to the currently discontinued T-800. Forte has improved their 200 and 400 films in the last year with significant updates to the formulations. Both Foma and Forte make some wonderful papers. Some of these films and papers are rebranded into popular brands. These factories are producing more film and paper that you might think. It's just that you see much of it rebranded under these popular names.

 

[Foto Ludens]

A mass hoarding is just going to bring the end so much quicker as sales go into the toilet after everyone has more film than they know what to do with.

Speaking from experience, this is very true.

Of course, if it's me, speaking from my experience.

My experience is limitied.

You've been warned.

A long, long time ago (about 1 yr?) JandC had surplus Macophot UP100 up for sale, at unbeatable prices. I bought some.

Ok, I bought 100 rollls. I then shot 10 of them, and finished my (then) current project. A few months (6-7) later, I traveled to Brazil and shot a few more.

Ok, 65 more.

Since then I shot 5 more rolls. Maybe it was 6.

The point is: I still have 19 rolls to play with, and the way my life is going right now, they will last a while. And although I really want to try Classic 200 and 400, I can't justify buying them (the fact that I'm not shooting doesn't help).

So, JandC, you'll have my business again. I just need to shoot more.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But I'm printing!!! And I hear your paper is good. And I'll buy it. Soon.

But my darkroom is down. It has become a storage facility.

Another room is being worked on. Ceramic tiles are being laid out. A sink will be installed.

Will Silver Emulsion still exist by the time it's finished? Can our Super Hero shoot down the terrible super villain?

Will this mad man ever stop typing?

Will he?

.
.

Please?

Stop?

STOP!

OK.

sorry.

I stopped.



see?

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

Forte's new 400-speed film shows some real progress (or maybe regress for the better), Efke 100 is an outstanding traditional film, and I'm glad to see that Efke is keeping some slower emulsions in production but Forte and Efke still have a few things to work on before they can really replace the films made by the major manufacturers--

--Adding a protective layer to make the films more scratch resistant.

--Getting the width of 120 film backing right so that it doesn't leak. Foma seems to get this right. And any chance of seeing 220 films?

--Precise cutting of sheet film with a smooth edge. We all know about the one disaster, where it was far enough out of tolerance that it had to be replaced, but even when it's close enough to work, it's not as consistent as Kodak. My last batch of Efke 100 4x5" fit my holders, fortunately, but I needed to readjust my Nikor sheet film reel to make it fit.

--Emulsion notches and edge printing that identify the film might not be a bad idea.

One thing to be said for the East European manufacturers, though, is that they are listening and improving their products in response to these kinds of discussions. Enough people complained about density problems with the old ClassicPan 400 that they reformulated it and produced a real winner with the new Classic 400. J&C is participating in this discussion, but I don't see anyone from Ilford, Agfa, or Kodak here (though to be fair, David Carper from Ilford does seem active on internet forums, if not this one).

And Maco Expo RF graded is perfect. This one should stay just like it is.