Backward Tilt only on Front Standard - What is is Good For?

[Stephen Power]

I have a question about my medium format Topcon Horseman 970 6x9cm camera (see avatar), for the large format users if that's OK? I hope the cross-over post will be allowed.

It only has backward tilt on the front standard and I wondered under what circumstances this would be best used, as I have read that forward tilt is mostly used to increase depth of field?

It also has limited forward and back tilt and swing on the rear standard. Perhaps this can compensate for the loss of forward tilt on the front?

Any advice is welcome and apologies if I've crossed a line.

 

[neilt3]

I don't know about your camera , but one of the ones I have is an FKD tailboard camera .
The front us fixed upright with just rise or sideways movement .
The back has forward and back tilt as well as a swivel movement .

If I want to use forward tilt I have to tilt the whole camera forward , use the rear tilt to put the film plane vertical and use the front rise to centre the lens to the film .

It's a bit of a faff , but it works .
The FKD isn't really a field camera though .

 

[Stephen Power]

If I want to use forward tilt I have to tilt the whole camera forward , use the rear tilt to put the film plane vertical and use the front rise to centre the lens to the film.

Thanks for the reply. I'm still trying work out why I would need forward tilt on the front standard, and if it's an important moment missing from my camera.

 

[Donald Qualls]

Forward tilt is probably the most used movement for landscapes -- it's the one you use to put the plane of focus parallel to the ground, so the grass/leaves/reeds nearby are in focus along with the mountains/islands/geese/etc. at a distance that are the real subject.

 

[Stephen Power]

Forward tilt is probably the most used movement for landscapes -- it's the one you use to put the plane of focus parallel to the ground, so the grass/leaves/reeds nearby are in focus along with the mountains/islands/geese/etc. at a distance that are the real subject.

Thank you for that - and it's what I suspected; increasing sharpness in the foreground to extend the depth of field from the middle and background to the foreground. Do you know if this can be compensated for by using the back standard, as I don't have it on the front?

 

[Donald Qualls]

As previously posted, you can tilt the whole camera forward, then use rear tilt (top of rear standard back toward you) and front rise to control perspective and get the FOV you want. With some press type cameras, you can use bed drop and front rise in place of forward front tilt (this works with one of my 1920s vintage Ideal plate cameras, IIRC the one with the Ica name on it, as well as with my Anniversary Speed Graphic). And in some press cameras, like some later Speed Graphics, you can remove the front standard and reinstall it back to front to get the available front tilt in a (more) useful direction.

 

[Stephen Power]

With some press type cameras, you can use bed drop and front rise in place of forward front tilt (this works with one of my 1920s vintage Ideal plate cameras, IIRC the one with the Ica name on it, as well as with my Anniversary Speed Graphic). And in some press cameras, like some later Speed Graphics, you can remove the front standard and reinstall it back to front to get the available front tilt in a (more) useful direction.

Thanks again, that's very helpful. This camera does have bed-drop, so I'll try that. I don't think the front standard can be reversed. I've a lot of practicing to do!

 

[bdial]

The backward tilt is there to bring the lens parallel with the back when the bed is in the dropped position.
The core purpose for the bed drop is to accommodate wide angle lenses, so that the front of the bed is our of the lens’s field of view.

As mentioned, you can exploit those features to approximate a view camera’s controls, but it gets awkward if you need to do it a lot.

Somewhere on the web, and probably in here, there is a mod documented for Graflex cameras to extend the slot in the front standard to allow forward tilts, something similar might work for your Horseman.

 

[Bob S]

I have a question about my medium format Topcon Horseman 970 6x9cm camera (see avatar), for the large format users if that's OK? I hope the cross-over post will be allowed.

It only has backward tilt on the front standard and I wondered under what circumstances this would be best used, as I have read that forward tilt is mostly used to increase depth of field? ....

Very wrong!!! Tilting the front, or the back, has no effect on depth of field. Only focal length and aperture, along with the acceptable circle of confusion you want for the final print size controls depth of field. Tilt and swing, among other things control the plane of sharp focus.

 

[Ron (Netherlands)]

Front tilt is preferable above tilting the back (however only the more luxury camera's have front tilt), since front tilt doesn't change the perspective - back tilt does. Luckily in most cases back tilt doesn't disturb the overall impression of the picture.
Here's one were I had to use back tilt to get the wine glass as well as the bottle in sharp focus - using a 10 x 15 Ica Tropica which has only the possibility of back tilt (only my 13 x18 Tropica has front tilt). However if you don't know the original circumstances it is hard to discern a change in perspective:


ICA Tropica testshot 1 10x15cm flatfilm by Ron (Netherlands), on Flickr

 

[Stephen Power]

Very wrong!!! Tilting the front, or the back, has no effect on depth of field. Only focal length and aperture, along with the acceptable circle of confusion you want for the final print size controls depth of field. Tilt and swing, among other things control the plane of sharp focus.

Thanks for the warm welcome. I've been teaching photography at universities for 30 years so I'm OK with focal length and aperture (and hyperfocal distance) for DoF control. I thought I'd seen a video by Fred Newman HERE that suggested that tilt combined with focus can be used to increase DoF. Maybe I misunderstood.

 

[Stephen Power]

Front tilt is preferable above tilting the back (however only the more luxury camera's have front tilt), since front tilt doesn't change the perspective - back tilt does. Luckily in most cases back tilt doesn't disturb the overall impression of the pictur

Thank you, very helpful and great photo.

 

[Stephen Power]

The backward tilt is there to bring the lens parallel with the back when the bed is in the dropped position.
The core purpose for the bed drop is to accommodate wide angle lenses, so that the front of the bed is our of the lens’s field of view.

As mentioned, you can exploit those features to approximate a view camera’s controls, but it gets awkward if you need to do it a lot.

Somewhere on the web, and probably in here, there is a mod documented for Graflex cameras to extend the slot in the front standard to allow forward tilts, something similar might work for your Horseman.

I appreciate the very helpful and constructive reply. I'll try and find the information you mentioned.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

The backward tilt is there to bring the lens parallel with the back when the bed is in the dropped position.
The core purpose for the bed drop is to accommodate wide angle lenses, so that the front of the bed is our of the lens’s field of view.

As mentioned, you can exploit those features to approximate a view camera’s controls, but it gets awkward if you need to do it a lot.

Somewhere on the web, and probably in here, there is a mod documented for Graflex cameras to extend the slot in the front standard to allow forward tilts, something similar might work for your Horseman.

Would you tilt the camera and focus the nearby and then tilt the back to focus the far - the opposite of what is normally done?

 

[Bob S]

Front tilt is preferable above tilting the back (however only the more luxury camera's have front tilt), since front tilt doesn't change the perspective - back tilt does. Luckily in most cases back tilt doesn't disturb the overall impression of the picture.
Here's one were I had to use back tilt to get the wine glass as well as the bottle in sharp focus - using a 10 x 15 Ica Tropica which has only the possibility of back tilt (only my 13 x18 Tropica has front tilt). However if you don't know the original circumstances it is hard to discern a change in perspective:


ICA Tropica testshot 1 10x15cm flatfilm by Ron (Netherlands), on Flickr

Back tilts and swings do not change perspective. They do control the plane of sharp focus and the shape of the subject.
Only changing the angle af the camera to the subject changes the perspective.

 

[Stephen Power]

Back tilts and swings do not change perspective. They do control the plane of sharp focus and the shape of the subject.
Only changing the angle af the camera to the subject changes the perspective.

Would you tilt the camera and focus the nearby and then tilt the back to focus the far - the opposite of what is normally done?

This is actually covered in the video I mentioned above (from 5 minutes in). Newman does seem to use the back standard that way .

 

[Donald Qualls]

Back tilts and swings do not change perspective. They do control the plane of sharp focus and the shape of the subject.
Only changing the angle af the camera to the subject changes the perspective.

Well, more correctly, changing the angle of the film plane relative to the subject changes perspective. If the film plane is vertical, a vertical building will not appear to converge from street to roof. If the film plane is tilted back, it will. This is the specific primary application for front rise: to allow aiming the view up without tilting the film plane and causing convergence. Likewise, shifts exist to allow horizontal features to be kept parallel, instead of the fence or wall getting "smaller" as it gets further from the camera if you point the whole camera.

Since the back is where the film plane is, it is in fact rear tilts and swings that control perspective on the film. Using your wording, you have to think of the film plane (or camera back) as being the camera.

End result: rear tilts and swings control perspective, front tilts and swings control the plane of sharp focus, while rise, fall, and shift (whether adjusted in the standards or at the bed or rail) change the direction of the central view (or might also be thought of as selecting the particular portion of the image circle to be recorded on the film). If you leave all the movements centered and locked (or use a camera that has no movements, like most medium format and smaller rigs), then when you rotate the whole camera to set your framing you're also willy-nilly introducing shifts and swings and rise/fall and tilt, all locked together, and the only way you can make an image of a building without convergence is to use a wide angle lens, pointed horizontal and perpendicular to the "front" wall, and crop down to the portion of the negative that contains the actual building. With movements, you can do this crop in camera, with a much larger image.

 

[MattKing]

I thought I'd seen a video by Fred Newman HERE that suggested that tilt combined with focus can be used to increase DoF. Maybe I misunderstood.

Tilt changes the plane of focus.
Think of depth of field as a description of how far in front and how far behind the plane of focus things are acceptably in focus. You can envision that as a thick wedge of acceptably sharp focus (the "Wedge").
When you tilt the front or the back of the camera, the Wedge doesn't change its shape or size (the DofF doesn't change) but it does tilt around a central axis. As a result, when you employ tilt the Wedge moves, some parts of the subject that were formerly within the Wedge end up outside the Wedge (appear out of focus), while other parts of the subject that were formerly outside the Wedge end up being included in the Wedge (appear in focus).
In the case of Ron (Netherlands) example, when he employed tilt he made sure that the Wedge continued to include the bottle (which stayed in focus), while the glass went from being outside the Wedge (out of focus) to being included in the Wedge (in focus).
Depending on how the front and back standards are mounted, you may have to adjust focus as well, because unless they are mounted in their centre, tilt will move the central axis back or forward.

 

[138S]

It also has limited forward and back tilt and swing on the rear standard. Perhaps this can compensate for the loss of forward tilt on the front?

If you tilt-swing the front, then the plane of focus (in the scene) also tilts-swings in the same senses.

If you tilt-swing the back then the plane of focus (in the scene) also tilts-swings but in the counter senses.

When you tilf-swing the front an additional effect happens, the image circle on the film plane is displaced, imagine the lens is a torch projecting a circle on film... as you tilt-swing the front the direction in what you point the torch changes, displacing the center. You can place the circle centered again with rise-shift translational movements.


Learn what is the Scheimflug principle: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scheimpflug_principle

 

[BradS]

I have a question about my medium format Topcon Horseman 970 6x9cm camera (see avatar), for the large format users if that's OK? I hope the cross-over post will be allowed.

It only has backward tilt on the front standard and I wondered under what circumstances this would be best used? ......

Welcome!

The backward tilt is there to bring the lens parallel with the back when the bed is in the dropped position.
The core purpose for the bed drop is to accommodate wide angle lenses, so that the front of the bed is our of the lens’s field of view....

This is the correct answer to the question above.

 

[BradS]

Very wrong!!! Tilting the front, or the back, has no effect on depth of field. Only focal length and aperture, along with the acceptable circle of confusion you want for the final print size controls depth of field. Tilt and swing, among other things control the plane of sharp focus.

No it is not wrong. Tilts change the angle of the plane of focus, and as a result the angle plane of depth of field....so, no. It is not wrong at all.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

No it is not wrong. Tilts change the angle of the plane of focus, and as a result the angle plane of depth of field....so, no. It is not wrong at all.

I agree with BradS.

 

[neilt3]

Very wrong!!! Tilting the front, or the back, has no effect on depth of field. Only focal length and aperture, along with the acceptable circle of confusion you want for the final print size controls depth of field. Tilt and swing, among other things control the plane of sharp focus.

Just semantics .
This is why tilt lenses exist with 35mm photography , and why it's an invaluable asset with large format to have forward tilt , along with being on some medium format cameras .
Without tilt , you'd be correct .
With tilt , that rule doesn't apply .

Thanks for the warm welcome. I've been teaching photography at universities for 30 years so I'm OK with focal length and aperture (and hyperfocal distance) for DoF control. I thought I'd seen a video by Fred Newman HERE that suggested that tilt combined with focus can be used to increase DoF. Maybe I misunderstood.

No , you understood it just fine .
Regardless of if you want to call it "plane of focus" or "depth of field" , if you focus with the lens board and film parallel at any given aperture you have a specific DOF . The same holds true in any format .
By applying a little forward tilt it brings the foreground into focus as well as the distance , without the need to stop the lens down excessively .
For this we have pinhole cameras !

I do mostly landscapes , and the movement I typically use is forward tilt .
That's why tilt lenses exist in 35mm Photography otherwise to obtain the same amount of DOF without tilt would give you a soft image due to diffraction .

 

[Bob S]

No it is not wrong. Tilts change the angle of the plane of focus, and as a result the angle plane of depth of field....so, no. It is not wrong at all.

No. The angle of the camera to the subject controls perspective.

there are 2 ways of using a view camera.
1 is by direct displacements. To use the building example. Place the camera where you want it, raise the front standard and lowere the back standard, with the camera level, and you have the building in the picture with no keystoning. Providing your camera has adequate rise fall and your lens has enough coverage.
2 is by indirect displacements. Tilt the camera till yo have the top of the building in the frame, tilt your back till it is parallel to the building, tilt your lens so it is parallel to the back.
Both give you identical results.
But neither changes the perspective.
That only changes with camera position.

 

[Bob S]

“Just semantics .
This is why tilt lenses exist with 35mm photography , and why it's an invaluable asset with large format to have forward tilt , along with being on some medium format cameras .
Without tilt , you'd be correct .
With tilt , that rule doesn't apply .”

wrong. A tilting lens controls Scheimpflug, that is the plane of sharp focus. Tilting the film plane controls the shape of the image.
If your tilt lens has enough tilt to be parallel to the film after you tilt the film plane then you would have some control over image shape. But not near as much control as with a view camera with full movements.