B&W Supply Reliability and New Providers

[Mark J]

Pyrogallol now cost £1 per gram in the UK ...

 

[NedL]

Yeah, I wrote above that I'm going to make some DS-14 to become more "self sufficient", and this thread got me going. Putting together the order for chemicals, the only place that I've seen dimezone-s is freestyle, so I won't be very "self-sufficient" if I'm relying on one place for one of the chemicals. Phenidone is available from several suppliers, so that's an alternative, but to replace LPD one thing that would be very nice is the long keeping in solution.

OTOH I'll get enough dimezone-s to last me a long time, if I can figure out how to keep it without it going bad.....

 

[eli griggs]

Eli, most of what you say is right, but things have been changing and continue to do so. You mention for instance borax and boric acid, and while with a little bit of effort and luck you can still get those, here in Europe it's getting more difficult for private individuals. Sodium hydroxide is a notable other example that has become more challenging to obtain (there are still ways though), copper sulfate is not as commonly used everywhere as it is in the US as e.g. root killer (I've never seen it sold for that purpose where I live), battery acid is not easily obtainable anymore either (it used to be, but no longer), hydrogen peroxide (for e.g. reversal bleaches) only in concentrations that aren't effective for photographic purposes, the same goes for other acids although those are generally still useful in lower concentrations, etc.



That's just not realistic. You don't go and suggest that people use aqua regia to make their own gold chloride etc. That's just silly - and highly irresponsible. Even making silver nitrate with nitric acid is risky business - and by far not all that easy to do if you need the purity that is required for photographic purposes.

I agree that with sufficient creativity, there's lots of stuff still to experiment with. But you can't (shouldn't) deny the reality that many things that you take for granted really are not as easy to get elsewhere than they are for you. Ask any darkroom worker in Australia or Brasil how they fare. You'll start to understand how spoilt rotten you really are.



Unrealistic given the diversity of sourcing situations and the every-changing rules & regulations. You could write a book and it'll be (1) incomplete and (2) outdated before you even get halfway.

As we are mostly adults here, we are able to do adult things, even dangerous things, as well as our own abilities allow.

Gold, Silver, Platinum salts, etc are doable, and like it or not, the risks rest entirely with the person making it a reality.

Wether or no, that person does it in a safe environment, that'll also allow others to be protected from the outgassing, is a part of the risks the maker undertakes in his/her own hands.

There is nothing the least irresponsible in allowing knowledge of possibilities, but censorship of factual information impedes the broad spectrum of approaches and the continued abilities, for all of us, to practice analog photography, limited only by PC practices.

While easy availability to the needed chemicals is restricted in some Nations, very often those same chemicals are obtainable from other products and applications, and in the case of several, experienced, practicing darkroom photographers whom are capable, can safely be made through an indepth knowledge of chemistry.

It's easy to say, no, no, no to the obtain ability of named materials, abroad but that approach denies creative and progressive incentives.

Lastly, the basic chemistry used for darkroom solutions, has not changed all that much from what it was 100years ago, for example, Rodonal, and todays Parrodinal, made with the chemical available in, Tylenol, ie, acetaminophen.

Rodonal was and can be still used to developed both films and papers, and 'improved' by Vitamin C, etc.

That's not going to change anytime soon, having already been an accessable formula and materials for a hundred years plus, so suggesting a sticky thread would be outdated anytime soon is just not a defendable assumption, just serving in the role of a blocking censorship of photographers from even attempting.

IMO.

 

[MattKing]

suggesting a sticky thread would be outdated anytime soon is just not a defendable assumption, just serving in the role of a blocking censorship of photographers from even attempting.

It is more a comment on how the forum structure and its international nature isn't well suited to what you wish to achieve. Advice that works in the USA is often merely frustrating to those of us who aren't in the USA.

 

[eli griggs]

It is more a comment on how the forum structure and its international nature isn't well suited to what you wish to achieve. Advice that works in the USA is often merely frustrating to those of us who aren't in the USA.

Perhaps, but I can not imagine not being able to learn from practices, methods, alternative products from the UK, European Union, Japan, S. America, etc, relayed by persons in this locations.

It's not that everything has to be applicable to someone else's needs or situations, but knowledge of those other 'things,' may just provoke innovation, imaginations, or alternative approaches.

IMO.

 

[koraks]

suggesting a sticky thread would be outdated anytime soon is just not a defendable assumption, just serving in the role of a blocking censorship of photographers from even attempting.

Come on.

This is a tiny fraction of the chemistry I have. I have several more crates in storage. I have a vague idea what I'm talking about, and that's the basis I'm using for my nuances to your in principle sensible suggestion to be creative.

I've also advised and coached many darkroom workers in the process of obtaining chemistry that was/is sometimes hard to find. This goes so far as sourcing directly from manufacturers in East Asia, but for the most part consists of exactly like you said creatively making use of whatever is available locally in the form of household products.

I have also witnessed over the years how suppliers pop up and disappear at the drop of a hat, and legislation meandering (usually becoming stricter), causing stuff that used to be totally normal/regular to disappear from the shelves overnight and without as much as a notification being posted on obscure chemistry forums. I've also participated in enough exchanges internationally (some of these you can find here on this forum) that revolved around the various ways local markets differ, and the sheer impossibility of accurately assessing the availability of chemicals in a place you can't actually root around in for a couple of days/weeks.

Moreover, I'm fairly well aware of the average chemistry knowledge and interest of darkroom photographers. The harsh reality is that many of them are absolutely unwilling and unable to do the things that you and I may consider all in a day's work. Sometimes with decent reason, sometimes due to (IMO objectively) odd/irrational reasons. The number I'd trust with making noble metal salts in my circle of friends and acquaintances is limited to less than a handful (one of them has in fact done this, but only because he has access to an exceedingly well-equipped lab and is working in the field of biochemistry, so he has a good idea of what he's up against).

Based on all this, I have objections to your idealistic picture of "oh just let's be creative, there's always a way". There is often a way, and being creative/resourceful definitely helps. There are still limits (some soft, some hard) and risks (some tolerable/acceptable, some objectionable). Pointing these out isn't 'censorship'. It's common sense.

 

[loccdor]

Impressive chemistry collection!

In that vein, living in very close quarters with a dog and wife, neither who always follow the best safety practices, put me off on keeping hydrochloric acid for B&W reversal processing. Pyro is about as far as I want to go in terms of keeping dangerous stuff around. It all goes in a large plastic box that remains closed and put away.

 

[koraks]

hydrochloric acid for B&W reversal processing

Well, it won't work very well in that capacity to begin with; you want an acid without a halide; hydrochloric acid with something like dichromate or permanganate would create a rehalogenating bleach, which isn't useful for B&W reversal. This is where you want to use sulfuric acid for instance (a.k.a. battery acid), which is now no longer available for private consumers where I live (used to be up to a few years ago).

Anyway, your point about concerns is very appropriate and precisely what I was referring to here:

Sometimes with decent reason, sometimes due to (IMO objectively) odd/irrational reasons.

In your case, I'd guesstimate it's a mix of both valid concerns and perhaps some people (I'm not mentioning your wife of course...or perhaps I am! - don't tell her!) being overly cautious. Then again, if you have pets &or children running around, it's already a different matter than working in a place where you can be confident nobody is going to take a sip from the bottle of attractively orange juice (which then turns out to be 10% ammonium dichromate...) Risks and concerns should be taken seriously and sometimes, in the negotiation between members of a household, this means that some things may not be feasible. Being forced to choose between reversal processing and a happy marriage, I'd gladly shoot digital!

 

[Rolleiflexible]

The harsh reality is that many of them are absolutely unwilling and unable to do the things that you and I may consider all in a day's work.

Life is short. In the end, there is a finite circle of skills that one has time and resources to master. I could teach myself how to make all of the chemicals I need from scratch. But then I will have less time to shoot and process film, or to make prints, or to be a father to my children. So for as long as I can buy chemicals from Artcraft or the Formulary, I am happy to give them my cash and help keep them in business. I have better things to do with the time left to me.

 

[MattKing]

Three things:
1) it is always appropriate to use Photrio to share current information about recipes and availability of materials - just be sure to make it location specific, so that readers can include that in their considerations;
2) it may very well be appropriate for Photrio to consider a change that might help organize that information in one sub-forum, but the basic structure of threads here - old information at the beginning, and updated information at the end - makes it difficult to make a resource like that as valuable as, for example, a Wiki page;

In that vein, living in very close quarters with a dog and wife,

3) Unless your dog reads your Photrio posts, it might be more politic to post instead "In that vein, living in very close quarters with my wife and a dog".

 

[eli griggs]

I'm a bit fortunate to have poisoned the dog when I was around ten years old, by way of a chemistry set I received one Christmas, fifty six years ago.

I was working on the floor of my bedroom and had a small container make a small spill of its content onto the wooden floor, which I did clean up, I thought but apparently, sweeping was not enough and the dog managed to luck up what the broom and pan, did not!

After that, plus a short funeral by the Muscadines, I locked things up in metal boxes, with actual locks.

One interesting resource so.e here might try looking for are , old generalized, multi subject 'encyclopedias'.

I have one in particular, which has a number of pages dedicated to photography and darkroom chemistry, using some house hold items, etc, and it's an interesting read, if only for learning what was done in the past.

Censorship is often social, not governmental, but more like the prohibitions of the European Guilds, where if you were not in conversation with or teaching an apprentice, any 'how-to' knowledge was censored by the members.

Today, censorship is quite common, which is, IMO, is ironic, seeing how the Internet is suppose to be the portal to (near) unlimited knowledge.

Social Pressures to withholding data from novices, beginners, "others" by publicly disapproving of said information, is a too powerful, (for many) force that limites others from learning what is possible vs. "approved" methods and materials.

While it might not always or mostly be a question of destroying the readable and available information to keep such knowledge within an approved group, the disapproval of those with access to and knowledge of these things results into a sort of native censorship, without regard for interested, curiously inspired individuals Human Rights to determine for themselves, if they are willing to undertake the risks such undertakers can and do involve.

Knowledge is become a uniting factor for many in this World, bringing each other into close, common understanding and building the base platform that we hope will result in a less conflicted Humanity in our futures, both immediate and future.

Phototrio.com is one piece in that base, so let's share and in doing so become more united in our aspirations of better tomorrow.

Eli

 

[koraks]

Phototrio.com is one piece in that base, so let's share and in doing so become more united in our aspirations of better tomorrow

'Photrio'
I think if you search around you'll see that I, for one, quite readily share the exact kind of knowledge you're referring to.

I'd appreciate it if you could drop the mumbojumbo about censorship. It's uncalled for, inappropriate and puts a discussion on edge in an unnecessary way for no particular reason.

 

[MattKing]

I have one in particular, which has a number of pages dedicated to photography and darkroom chemistry, using some house hold items, etc, and it's an interesting read, if only for learning what was done in the past.

Censorship is often social, not governmental, but more like the prohibitions of the European Guilds, where if you were not in conversation with or teaching an apprentice, any 'how-to' knowledge was censored by the members.

Today, censorship is quite common, which is, IMO, is ironic, seeing how the Internet is suppose to be the portal to (near) unlimited knowledge.

Post away - to "Photrio", not "Phototrio".
Start whatever (on topic) thread you wish. We will only edit anything that is in breach of the rules that are oriented toward maintaining a civil exchange of observations and knowledge.
Just be aware that it will be of extremely limited use if you assume that availability of materials is consistent worldwide.
So it will be helpful if you always include information about where you are, and where your sources are. For that reason, it may even be helpful/appropriate to include your location in the opening post and thread title.
And it would be wise to consider the fact that old posts are generally not available to be edited, so the evolution of any thread may result in early information being rendered inaccurate by the passage of time. That is simply a function of the structure of the site.
For that reason, it may be appropriate sometimes to request that a moderator lock an old thread that has become misleading due to the passage of time, and start a new thread to provide updated and corrected information. If you do that, inclusion of referring links in both old and new threads, accompanied by appropriate cautions, can be a good idea.
We look forward to anything constructive you can contribute to such an endeavour, subject to the concerns mentioned.

 

[eli griggs]

Ok, for those that have access to Hardwoods, like Oaks, never soft woods like pine, you can read the following Wiki how-to on making liquid potassium hydroxide for your darkroom activities.

Rodinal (and likely, Parrodinal) seems to like potassium hydroxide over sodium hydroxide, so this material, self-made, while caustic and toxic, is simply made, if you have the space to put a prepared barrel with hardwood white ashes (no charcoals) and safely trickle water through them to a secured safe catch jar or bucket.

How to Make Lye: Expert Tips

Lye is an alkaline solution that's often used for washing, making soaps, and curing certain foods.

www.wikihow.com

Perhaps someone here knows and is willing to share, an appropriate method to reduce the potassium lye water into a solid material, and can post here a link and general run through of what should happen in n the process and your personal experience, if any, doing so.

 

[mshchem]

I have zero concern about black and white chemistry. If people could figure out how to develop in 1880, we can surely figure it out today. Cost is another thing altogether.

 

[eli griggs]

I have zero concern about black and white chemistry. If people could figure out how to develop in 1880, we can surely figure it out today. Cost is another thing altogether.

I believe this is true, but since this must take into account different availabilities.

Do you have a favorite alternative to photographer's chemistry store product that you're willing to share here?

 

[mshchem]

I believe this is true, but since this must take into account different availabilities.

Do you have a favorite alternative to photographer's chemistry store product that you're willing to share here?

I use Ilford and Kodak for B&W chemistry. A bit of Adox too.

FWIW, PSI, that will be making Kodak branded chemistry has been around for over 50 years, Unicolor etc.

 

[mshchem]

I have so much stuff squirrelled away I could develop film and paper for the next 20 years ( assuming my wife doesn't have me committed) . Still I will be buying going forward to keep suppliers happy.

 

[loccdor]

Unless your dog reads your Photrio posts, it might be more politic to post instead "In that vein, living in very close quarters with my wife and a dog".

Neither my wife nor my dog, read Photrio! I believe my dog may have learned to read sardine can labels, or perhaps just looks at the pictures... my wife on the other hand, just calls me and the other photographers "nerds"

 

[loccdor]

sulfuric acid

Oops yes, it was sulfuric acid I was thinking of. I remember looking into it briefly, and in the USA, you can buy it at Walmart.

 

[mshchem]

Where do you buy formaldehyde?

 

[eli griggs]

Oops yes, it was sulfuric acid I was thinking of. I remember looking into it briefly, and in the USA, you can buy it at Walmart.

There are several ways to make your own Sulfuric Acid, and using Sodium metabisilfate seems to be a popular method, however, this a risky proposition, and needs to be done with a strong acid hood, like you'll find in college printmaking studios, where the use of Acids is just part of the process in copper plate etchings, sugar etchings, etc.

There is plenty of material online on this process and other processes that also result in usable Sulfuric Acid.

Wikipedia has at least one article on this, just for a starting place for discovering how-to actually do this in a safe and sound way.

Good Luck.

Eli

 

[mshchem]

I have no desire to work with strong acids and caustics. I worked as a chemist, analytical, old school. Kjeldahl nitrogen assays, boiling sulfuric, 50% NaOH. Nitric and hydrochloric digestion of mineral specimens. Never got hurt, freaking miracle, neither did any co-workers.
I will stick to buying the non-hazardous stuff.
I did make a batch of silver nitrate a couple years back. Beautiful crystals. Very toxic fumes.

 

[eli griggs]

I have no desire to work with strong acids and caustics. I worked as a chemist, analytical, old school. Kjeldahl nitrogen assays, boiling sulfuric, 50% NaOH. Nitric and hydrochloric digestion of mineral specimens. Never got hurt, freaking miracle, neither did any co-workers.
I will stick to buying the non-hazardous stuff.
I did make a batch of silver nitrate a couple years back. Beautiful crystals. Very toxic fumes.

Some folks feel exactly like you do and want no part of that action, but it's good to know that the truly safe practices and equipment are available and that Nitric Acid can be handled safely as well in the creation of Silver Nitrate.

Thanks for sharing.

 

[koraks]

if you have the space to put a prepared barrel with hardwood white ashes (no charcoals) and safely trickle water through them to a secured safe catch jar or bucket.

Ah yeah, 'backyard grade' KOH. I might try that sometime, although I find DIY parodinal with technical grade KOH to be sufficiently foggy as is.

college printmaking studios, where the use of Acids is just part of the process in copper plate etchings, sugar etchings, etc.

I wonder how many colleges still etch with nitric acid. I imagine none at all. They all transitioned to inherently safe methods like ferric chloride. I doubt you'll find many colleges today with a fume hood, since they're not needed for what they do/teach (besides, gravure gave way to silkscreen in the arts education realm for the most part in the 1980s). If you barge in with the proposition to brew your own H2SO4, I imagine they'll have booted you out of the door with a firm "and don't think of coming back" before you've as much as started to unpack your bag.

The times they have been a'changin'. I'm all for experimentation and creative ways to get hold of chemistry, though. And I'll happily accommodate and contribute to threads that explore these topics, as I have in the past. I'm also very sympathetic and understanding of perspectives as offered by e.g. @Rolleiflexible - the argument that boils down to "pick your battles". At this point, if you want to make a beautiful print, mucking about with DIY chemistry is really a diversion.