B&W film, ISO and airport x-ray scanners

BrianShaw

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Films could be run through hand baggage scanners using conventinal x-ray scanners (non-CT) many times without measurable or noticeable damage.
The number of x-ray exposures before noticeable damage varied by film speed according to the landmark FAA/Industry study. I seem to recall that it was as low as 5 passes for 800 film and as high as 20 (maybe 25) for 100. There also were differences between color and B&W but I don’t recall it being very significant. What really complicated that discussion was agreement on how much x-ray effect constituted “damage” and “noticeable”. The were many measurable differences that weren’t especially noticeable or damaging.

All historical, of course, and applicable only to the non-CT machines.
 

Agulliver

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Thanks, that's what we need from every air traveller who uses CT scanner-equipped equipment

pentaxuser

I'll try and visually note which airports have the new CT scanners for cabin bags. I gather LHR started experimenting with them in 2019, but it is unclear if they've replaced all their scanners or just a few. For obvious reasons airports don't offer such information to the public because it could be useful to those with less than honourable intent. I was chatting just yesterday with a friend who used to work on the software for airport hand baggage scanners, and even today 10 years after he left the job he's not permitted to say what the colours on the screen mean...eg some objects show up as red, some green and so on....we're not supposed to know what that means to the security staff.

When I travel next month I'll have a hard copy of the letter from the DfT and ask for hand inspection of film at LHR. I'll also have a look at the equipment and see if it looks like one of the new scanners. I'm not planning on taking anything faster than 400ISO....though in the past I used to take Delta 3200 and never had any issues.

It's not clear if my bag will be rescanned at DFW (in the past with connecting flights my cabin bags were not scanned a second time but...times may have changed). If they are, I'll similarly note what the setup is.
 

pentaxuser

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Agulliver, would you anticipate any problem in asking the security staff if the line you are about to pass through is a CT scanner as you have been told by film makers that these scanners damage film and thus would like a hand inspection. If its a CT scanner but they don't want to say, they will presumably give you a hand inspection without actually saying anything so they have revealed nothing but it tells you that it is a CT scanner and that in that airport security staff have got the message to offer hand inspections.

That way you get a definite answer without compromising security. My fear is that if you cannot make such a statement to us then you may be unable to convince some here until we have got to the point where we are inundated with reports that hand inspections are then the normal practice

pentaxuser
 

BrianShaw

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but they don't want to say,
In the US, at least, a question about the type of screening machine would be promptly answered. It’s no secret; the machine is clearly visible so if one has rudimentary knowledge of what they look like (there are pictures on the internet of the CT machines for all of the current manufacturers) it is clearly apparent.

Some CT machines from other manufacturers are a bit more distinctive and easier to identify since the rotating gantry is housed in a hoop-shaped enclosure.

Not long ago I saw a list of what machines were deployed at various airports. Can’t vouch for the absolute credibility of that list but it was from a professional source than forum chatter. That, or a link to a similar list, might even be in a previous thread on this forum I think, but could be wrong since I’m relying on memory) that LHR and other British airports uses this:


Note how the manufacturer provides many details that some chatroom folks speculate are concealed by the “security theater”. There are also patents for this technology that are publicly available and give away all sorts of technical and application details.

Inferring the type of machine from a hypothetical non-answer is fraught with risk of being wrong. I personally discount any user testimony that isn’t convincingly certain that a CT device was actually used.
 
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Agulliver

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Anyone got recent experience of the Eurostar?

I know someone who used it last month. Old X-ray machines.

Regarding LHR....I shall carry with me a letter from the DfT stating that all UK civil airports are instructed to accept requests for hand inspection of photographic material. The X-ray machines are usually visible, it's just not something they post about on airport websites nor do they answer email questions. So my plan is that if I feel the line I'm in is headed for a CT scanner, or if I am in any doubt, I'll ask politely for a hand inspection and have the letter ready if there's any trouble. I plan to arrive super early too, so hopefully there's no rush.

Once in the states I am confident that hand inspection is more "a thing" and is likely to be granted because they're used to it.

One way of knowing if a CT scanner is used....is if you're told that you can keep your laptop/tablet in your bag while it's scanned. And liquids.

Though some airports trialling CT cabin bag scanning are said to still ask passengers to remove these items to go through separately. But if you're told you can keep those things in your bag, it's a CT scanner.
 

snusmumriken

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That's very helpful and very wise. I'll copy your strategy. Thanks.
 

Sirius Glass

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In the US hand inspection is a privilege or a right.
 

BrianShaw

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In the US hand inspection is a privilege or a right.

Somewhere in this sentence there might be a “not” that has been omitted.

But, nonetheless… what @Agulliver wrote about the tendency for TSA to grant requests for hand check of film is completely correct as written.
 

wiltw

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It's not clear if my bag will be rescanned at DFW (in the past with connecting flights my cabin bags were not scanned a second time but...times may have changed). If they are, I'll similarly note what the setup is.
Let us begin with the premise that there is 'public space' and there is 'cleared space'. If an airport is layed out so that one can go from 'cleared space' in Terminal X directly to 'cleared space' in Terminal Y, one does not have to pass thru Security.
But if one has to go from 'cleared space' in Terminal X to 'public space' in order to get to 'cleared space' in Terminal Y, one has to go thru Security in order to enter Terminal Y

I have been in LHR (Heathrow) and went to Security in order to get to Gate X. I was sitting at Gate X for a very long time, and saw few additional passengers, so I started to worry about a gate change. But I had to enter 'public space' to see the flght information status board! So I had to go thru Security a second time simply to get back to Gate X.
 

Sirius Glass

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It depends on the airport. LAX has that for some terminals.
 

IMoL

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Copenhagen Terminal 3
FYI from recent travels through Copenhagen - they have installed one or two very new and different-looking scanners in a couple of the lanes now, but they were not active last time I was there.
 

Agulliver

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Interim report.

At LHR Terminal 3 it was obvious that all the scanners were the old type. Nevertheless I asked a security bod if the X-ray scanner was safe for film and she said "Yes, it's safe go ahead and put it through". I had no issues with security whatsoever. My wife, however, hating airports and hating waiting in line as she does was rather snarky and got pulled for an extra pat down and her bag hand checked in addition to the X-ray. A perfect example of how to, and how not to, treat the security staff at LHR (and indeed any airport)

At DFW the route from transfer bag recheck to the gate we needed to fly domestic to XNA did indeed require another trip through security. There the big screens advised that the X-ray scanners were safe for film under 800ISO. There was also a notice not to put film in checked luggage is it may be damaged.

Looks like the TSA in particular are on top of this and have included film in their electronic displays. There was no displayed advice at LHR, but as it turned out it wasn't necessary. The scanners were visibly the older type. At DFW it wasn't so obvious as some of the scanners had what could be a larger plastic shroud over the apparatus....which could have hidden the doughnut shape of a CT scanner beneath. But the signs said otherwise. Also they were insisting *all* electronics (including small devices), belts and shoes be taken out of bags....whereas LHR were only asking for laptops and tablets. The whole point of the CT scanners is that you won't have to put your electronics out of your bags.
 

snusmumriken

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I’ve just been through London St Pancras for the Eurostar. There was a 2 hour queue for security and the staff were in an evident flap. I asked the guy on my lane for a hand search of my film camera and film. I am not clear whether he even understood the concept of a film camera, but he insisted that everything had to go through the scanner and that there could be no manual checks. The Eurostar website states that they are older x-ray machines and safe for film, but I don’t trust the website to be up to date. (It also promises the option of a manual check.) There was no requirement to take electronics out of the bag. Infuriatingly, the guy operating the scanner was looking anywhere but at the screen.
 

pentaxuser

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I am not clear whether he even understood the concept of a film camera, but he insisted that everything had to go through the scanner and that there could be no manual checks.
You'll have to refer him to Henning Serger, Kodak are hiring or any of several threads here about film's revival

On a more serious note, the fact there was a bit of a panic and security staff were given a sort of "the rules are the rules so like it or lump" suggests that granting hand searches is by no means universally accepted

If Eurostar do change over to the CT scanners, let's hope the rules on hand inspections change accordingly

pentaxuser
 

Agulliver

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I'm back...and can report that the scanners at XNA were also the regular x-ray type. Unsurprising as the airport was refurbished in 2017, a couple of years before anyone started using the new scanners. Once again, there was a TV screen stating, among other pieces of useful info. that film under 800 ISO was safe to go through the scanner and that manual inspection of all bag contents was possible. I've seen that airport go from a ramshackle facility akin to a chicken shack to an award winning regional/national airport.

And once again, I sailed through while the wife got into an argument and had not only a pat down but an extra hand inspection of her cabin bag. Just goes to show that being short with security folk really is counter-productive.

At ORD we came in and out of T3 so no need to go through security again. I'll start developing the films again soon, possibly this evening. But as far as I could tell there were no problems related to film for the entire trip. Good to see Walmart is definitely stocking fresh "Made in Japan" Fuji Superia 400 in 135. And that it's selling.
 

Kodachromeguy

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Some good news re. hand inspection during my October trip to Greece:

Jackson, Mississippi. The TSA agents cheerfully hand inspected my bag of film.
Athens. Hand inspection, no issues at all, not even swabbed for chemical residue.
ATL airport after passing through Customs. Hand inspection, no issues.
 

snusmumriken

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I'm back too, and have developed my films. As previously reported, they had been through the x-ray machine at London St Pancras (Eurostar terminal). At the French (Paris, Gard du Nord) end, the staff were totally understanding, and let me pass my camera and film around the machines with no more than a glance. Chaotic congestion again as soon as we cleared French passport control and joined the queue for UK passport control.

Films (400 ISO) totally OK. Huge relief, but sadly nothing startlingly good among the photos.
 

Sirius Glass

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From LAX to Lihue HI x-ray machines.
 

Agulliver

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Developed two rolls of B&W film with no evidence that X-rays caused any damage, which is exactly what I expected.

At LHR, the staff were happy to say that the x-ray would not damage film and I suspect they would have hand inspected.

At DFW and XNA there were signs stating the machines were safe for film under 800ISO and that hand inspections were possible "just ask".

Biggest hassle was checking in on the way out and passport control coming home at LHR. That airport is a ****ing mess. All the American airports ran smoothly.
 

mrosenlof

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question: is X-ray inspection at Gare du Nord just for Eurostar? or do the French inspect for say, the TGV, in general? Just curious, Thanks!
 

koraks

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or do the French inspect for say, the TGV, in general?

Not for travels within France AFAIK. For Thalys travels from Paris to Brussels and Rotterdam the security measures vary a bit. Sometimes there's a gate to pass through with some personnel, sometimes luggage needs to go through a scanner. I haven't traveled that part for a while, but it was kind of inconsistent. Same with TGV/Thalys/Eurostar station Lille Europe (northern France). There's quite a number of combinations you can go through on a 'typical' mainline French railway station; it's not all that different from a smallish airport in a way.
 
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