If the laws did change after that incident, you're assuming that the lawmakers used logic in determining what substances needed more control.
B&H not shipping chemicals anymore?
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If the laws did change after that incident, you're assuming that the lawmakers used logic in determining what substances needed more control.
True, but the FAA was blamed for lax regulation of hazardous materials and that generated a review of how all hazardous materials were handled. It's possible, maybe even likely, the FAA erred on the side of caution in the aftermath of the crash.
But think about it. If you have a home break-in due to a weak lock on the front door, you might want to reconsider the lock on the back door and the windows too.
True, but I wouldn't put locks and bars on the interior doors and windows, which is the equivalent to what B&H is doing, if you can even believe their story.
I would never, in my wildest drug-induced hallucination, expect lawmakers to use logic, nor for them to understand what they write.
- Leigh
>>their shipping is a lot more, their cheapest option is double that of B&H<< Maybe that gets at the real issue for B&H - are they perhaps using a cheaper shipping method that has tighter restrictions?
I believe that they normally use UPS, but I have had them ship Federal Express too, I may have this backwards.
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I already responded to this kind of nonsense enough on a different forum. They're a business, and intend to stay in business. They sell a LOT of things
useful to photographers, but aren't a chemical supply house specializing in that kind of thing or its extra paperwork. There are numerous alternatives
for darkroom ingredients. No big deal.
useful to photographers, but aren't a chemical supply house specializing in that kind of thing or its extra paperwork. There are numerous alternatives
for darkroom ingredients. No big deal.
I suspect B&H does enough business with them to negotiate special rates (that may have additional restrictions).
I don't think so, because they have cheaper and more expensive shipping options, but the "store pick-up only" warning is displayed directly on the product page, before you get around to choosing a shipping option. Realistically, I think they decided to be ultra conservative about shipping chemicals and threw everything into the "don't ship" pile. Now they are working backwards and (hopefully) removing products that are obviously safe to ship.
MattKing
Moderator
That is my thought as well. UPS gives them a better deal over a range of shipping options, but can cancel the deal or levy penalties if they aren't extra vigilant about hazardous shipping restrictions.
I might be wrong, but I expect it is UPS (not B & H) that would be exposed to any government fines if hazardous goods regulations are breached.
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All large businesses with daily parcel pick ups have special shipping rates. But everything has to be packaged ready to move right then and there,
including any hazmat disclosure labeling. And as far as chemical products go, can every business afford to keep someone on staff who understands
all the nuances of the chemistry, and keeps track of the changes in formulations and rules? For example, I needed 100g of uranyl nitrate. That's a
controlled product. You'd allegedly need seven or eight SHIPLOADS of the stuff to make a dirty bomb, while the tiny amount I purchased probably wouldn't even fog a sheet of film placed below the bottle for a month (I tried it, and it didn't). But it's still the same chemical and required special labeling. The scientific supply house I bought it from was accustomed to that task; it's the specific kind of business they are in. But photo supply houses are a different story, especially if they're geared to rapid economical shipping. There are real consequences involved, with potentially giant
fines. A bit of white sugar or paint pigment from an unlabeled container spills on the freeway or bridge, and it will get outright shut down until a
portable hazmat unit finishes analyzing. Traffic can get backed up for hours, just like a freeway shooting. Happens more often than you might think.
including any hazmat disclosure labeling. And as far as chemical products go, can every business afford to keep someone on staff who understands
all the nuances of the chemistry, and keeps track of the changes in formulations and rules? For example, I needed 100g of uranyl nitrate. That's a
controlled product. You'd allegedly need seven or eight SHIPLOADS of the stuff to make a dirty bomb, while the tiny amount I purchased probably wouldn't even fog a sheet of film placed below the bottle for a month (I tried it, and it didn't). But it's still the same chemical and required special labeling. The scientific supply house I bought it from was accustomed to that task; it's the specific kind of business they are in. But photo supply houses are a different story, especially if they're geared to rapid economical shipping. There are real consequences involved, with potentially giant
fines. A bit of white sugar or paint pigment from an unlabeled container spills on the freeway or bridge, and it will get outright shut down until a
portable hazmat unit finishes analyzing. Traffic can get backed up for hours, just like a freeway shooting. Happens more often than you might think.
All that's well and good, but B&H isn't shipping any uranyl nitrate. It's a big company, certainly bigger than all the other photo retailers currently shipping darkroom chemicals. They have been shipping them for decades, including the two decades since the 1996 ValueJet crash they claimed as the reason they could no longer ship chemicals after 11/22/2016. When it was pointed out that they could ship UPS Ground, they claimed they didn't ship UPS Ground. Others posted copies of shipping labels from B&H showing that they indeed did ship UPS Ground. I received a replacement for a defective tripod head from them just this morning that was shipped UPS Ground (it too is defective and has to go back). But they dismissed that - twice in one post - saying that they don't overlook anything. They dissed their competitors, claiming their competitors were willing to ship illegally and just hope they wouldn't get caught. Yet, since 11/22/2016, B&H has gradually begun shipping darkroom chemicals again, even randomly shipping the large size of certain darkroom chemicals while not shipping the smaller size of the same chemicals. B&H tried to BS the photographic community on this website and others about its decision to stop shipping chemicals and was outed. Their management spokesperson Henryp has conspicuously disappeared from these threads. B&H's conduct displays an alarming lack of integrity, and some, like me, don't want to do any further business with them as a result. There are other places to buy darkroom chemicals (and cameras, lenses, other analog and digital films items, guitars, and tents). You are of course free to continue buying from them.
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I truly am in the same boat. I have competitors who routinely bring products across the state line illegally on the gamble they won't get caught. But if they ever do, they'll get audited for the whole pattern of behavior, which could potentially bankrupt them with fines. Here we also take a number of
precautions to insure flammables are securely and legally stored. Seemingly nobody else does. But there are two competitors who burned down last
year, and the whole country knows by now what just happened to a warehouse the next city over that dodged fire inspections. I myself haven't bought
chemicals from B&H for a long long time because there are much more convenient sources for that kind of product. They do have other things where
I find them the most efficient supplier.
precautions to insure flammables are securely and legally stored. Seemingly nobody else does. But there are two competitors who burned down last
year, and the whole country knows by now what just happened to a warehouse the next city over that dodged fire inspections. I myself haven't bought
chemicals from B&H for a long long time because there are much more convenient sources for that kind of product. They do have other things where
I find them the most efficient supplier.
I am out of popcorn, this soap opera is getting longer than i thought!
Meanwhile there is no further answer from B&H, right?
I wonder if there is some internet store specialized in chemicals that ships internationally. For example one that could sell me, easily:
potassium dichromate
sodium sulfite
metol (elon)
hydroquinone
phenidone
hypo
etcetera.
In this way we could all mix our own chemistry easily.
Of course, it would be even better if it could also sell specialized chemicals like "CD-3" or "CD-2" color developers.
And no, "sigma-aldrich" is not an option, we don't need ultra-pure 'analytical grades'.
Meanwhile there is no further answer from B&H, right?
I wonder if there is some internet store specialized in chemicals that ships internationally. For example one that could sell me, easily:
potassium dichromate
sodium sulfite
metol (elon)
hydroquinone
phenidone
hypo
etcetera.
In this way we could all mix our own chemistry easily.
Of course, it would be even better if it could also sell specialized chemicals like "CD-3" or "CD-2" color developers.
And no, "sigma-aldrich" is not an option, we don't need ultra-pure 'analytical grades'.
Try Photographers Formulary or Artcraft chemicals.
Soap opera this may well seem... But is it usual for any iconic retailer to comfortably weather this degree of sustained negative discussion without any responses nor any overt effort to retain goodwill? I think not! Their determined lack of communication & transparency in this matter has now reached some 8000 views on this forum alone - multiplied many times via social media channel activity. Their customer base is asking them out! I'm of the opinion that they should adopt a more proactive media strategy. Until we can be "brought into the fold", so to speak, and helped to more fully understand and appreciate their current retail issues plus future supply strategy They will remain "on the nose" with their current customer base - not undeservedly so! Fred
MattKing
Moderator
I expect that B & H's photographic chemical "customer base" is such a tiny percentage of their overall customer base that if shipping complexities regarding those chemicals jeopardize in any way their preferable arrangements with their shipper, then it is their photographic chemical customers who will lose out.
That being said, if they can easily and cheaply keep our business and make some money, I'm sure that they will do so.
That being said, if they can easily and cheaply keep our business and make some money, I'm sure that they will do so.
They are free to run their business in any way THEY see fit; you, of course, are free to deal with them or not as YOU choose.
Personally, I'd be more worried that the other dealers hear about B&H's action and decide to investigate if perhaps THEIR shipping procedures are not in accordance with regulations.
B&H has told too many different stories and at this point I don't believe a word they say.
No, the other vendors aren't going to follow their lead because they know this is just a fish story. Look under your kitchen sink and you will find many items much more hazardous than the items in question, yet they are shipped by everyone and their brother - just do a little shopping on Amazon, I guarantee you that they know the shipping regulations.
Let us not forget that B&H has told us that they don't ship ground, but that has been proven false.
B&H just doesn't respect their customers. For many of us they will lose more than our chemical business, but they don't care. So be it.
The solution to your issues is very simple: don't do business with them!
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BornLate - you were really born late, and don't have a clue about how complicated things can get. Regulations aren't consistent. They can differ not
only state by state, but county by county, and even city to city. And I can guarantee you that some people whom you think have it all figured out are
really a website checkout octopus having a vast number of tentacles into many different businesses, some of whom don't give a damn about the laws.
Rules can even differ with occupation. For example, nobody but ambulance drivers seems to take account of how many women asphyxiate in nail salons (quite a few do); but if I tried to sell a jar of typical nail polish in a paint store, it could levy a $75,000 fine per incident because its considered carcinogenic and flammable (which it is). But I guess the cosmetics industry has some good lobbyists. More likely, they're not even factoring in human health (EPA's role) but the fact that cabinet shops used to spray lacquer in quantity and blow up entire buildings (seen that happen more than once in this very area). So it's a fire dept and air resources board issue instead. We used to keep on staff a full time librarian just to keep pace with all this the paperwork, forms, and required record-keeping, including thousands of MSDS sheets. Nowadays MSDS data can simply be downloaded on demand by anyone, but the regulations have perhaps gotten even more tangled. Ironically, everyone, including manufacturers, would prefer stricter
rules that are consistent nationwide, so they didn't have to constantly re-tweak ingredients to match specific localized labeling requirements.
only state by state, but county by county, and even city to city. And I can guarantee you that some people whom you think have it all figured out are
really a website checkout octopus having a vast number of tentacles into many different businesses, some of whom don't give a damn about the laws.
Rules can even differ with occupation. For example, nobody but ambulance drivers seems to take account of how many women asphyxiate in nail salons (quite a few do); but if I tried to sell a jar of typical nail polish in a paint store, it could levy a $75,000 fine per incident because its considered carcinogenic and flammable (which it is). But I guess the cosmetics industry has some good lobbyists. More likely, they're not even factoring in human health (EPA's role) but the fact that cabinet shops used to spray lacquer in quantity and blow up entire buildings (seen that happen more than once in this very area). So it's a fire dept and air resources board issue instead. We used to keep on staff a full time librarian just to keep pace with all this the paperwork, forms, and required record-keeping, including thousands of MSDS sheets. Nowadays MSDS data can simply be downloaded on demand by anyone, but the regulations have perhaps gotten even more tangled. Ironically, everyone, including manufacturers, would prefer stricter
rules that are consistent nationwide, so they didn't have to constantly re-tweak ingredients to match specific localized labeling requirements.
Understood... But as yet they have no stated intention - "to do or not to do, that is the question"! Whether they value our custom for what some believe is a very small part (maybe not as profitible) is yet to be confirmed in clear and unequivocal terms! Everything else is conjecture. Even now their messages are confusing... items of pre-packed photo chemistry are being offered with free shipping ("great" I hear the multitudes rejoice) only to find that this item is subject to store pick-up only! Big deal! So sad really... Fred
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How uncharitable! As a user of product we don't need to know the complexities of bringing a product to market! The fact that it is available and that it is a wanted item is all that matters. If a major retailer with a sizeable international user base, without any notice, changes their terms of trade is unsettling. Hence, This thread...
The issue here is not that B&H need to take care of business it is about their arrogant & uncaring attitude toward their customers and their failure to communicate properly and so bring their customers along with them while they set about resolving the problem. That they may need or not need to satisfy handling, storage and transport regulation is not at issue - they failed their customers by not progressively working toward satisfaction of consumer demand for, in this instance, photo related chemistry. Fred
I don't see why this is such a big deal. There's so many ways to get chemistry. Not to mention make your own. There's thousands of different packaged chemicals out there but if you have about 10 different basic chemicals and a simple balance you can make almost everything you need. Yes I like XTOL, it's about all I've used for over 15 years. I think that B&H is struggling with trying to make a buck, trying to cope with all kinds of regulations etc. Times are changing, don't think for a second that B&H isn't feeling the pressure of the MEGA players like Amazon. Most photo stores have folded in the last 10 years.
I'm not changing anything, I buy online and local.
No Big Deal. Mike
I'm not changing anything, I buy online and local.
No Big Deal. Mike
Like I told Born2Late: The solution to your issues is very simple: don't do business with them!
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