B&H not shipping chemicals anymore?

[Ozxplorer]

Like I told Born2Late: The solution to your issues is very simple: don't do business with them!

I didn't - see #252... but, I'd have prefered not to do so. After all, B&H are or were my preferred supplier! Fred

 

[Ozxplorer]

Times are changing, ......... I'm not changing anything, I buy online and local.

Very perceptive... The more things change the more they stay the same? All of us are aware of the need to remain flexible in changing market conditions. But we don't need anyone to tell us what is good for us or what to do. By all means point out available options... I am very disappointed my preferred supplier has acted like amateurs in this instance and reserve the right to say so... Fred

 

[MattKing]

Other than the frustration, I really don't care much about how B & H have done what they have done. The problem is that by doing business the way they have in the past, they (and a few others) have essentially killed the local markets for hobbyist quantities of photographic chemicals in large parts of the world.
Which in turn has forced people all around the world to depend on shipping.
And now they appear to be withdrawing their shipping option (maybe).
For those who aren't in the USA, this is a lot more important than it is for those who are in the USA. The alternatives in the USA charge more for shipping than B & H, but for within USA shipments the difference is in most case manageable. The out of country shipment costs are however much greater - great enough to cause people to quit film and darkroom. And local options aren't a great replacement, because in many cases the local wholesale costs are huge, due to tiny volumes (when product is available).

 

[mgb74]

... The problem is that by doing business the way they have in the past, they (and a few others) have essentially killed the local markets for hobbyist quantities of photographic chemicals in large parts of the world.

What you're saying (I think) is that by being so much cheaper than local suppliers, they "killed" that local market. If you mean local "brick and mortar", I don't think the impact was all that great compared to the overall decline of film based processes. In fact, I would argue that without the availability of low cost, mail order suppliers of film and chemicals, the market for these would be so low that manufacturers like Ilford would be hard pressed to have a large enough market to serve. For example, how much Ilford HP-5 would I buy at $8-9 (the local price) vs. $4.09 at B&H?

I certainly could see how a B&H might be too formidable a competitor for a Canadian-based mail order specialty company, but even then I'm not so sure.

 

[MattKing]

My best local retail source has in the past filled customer's orders with merchandise they have purchased from B & H at retail prices and imported.

They do this because even paying retail and incurring the costs of shipping and importation, their cost (excluding questions of overhead) is less than if they purchased that merchandise wholesale from one of the authorized Canadian distributors.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if that is the case for many US retailers as well. Their wholesale cost being equal to or greater than B & H's retail price.

The distribution system is the victim - B & H and Adorama and a couple of others have, with their pricing and shipping policies have made it extremely dysfunctional.

 

[Ozxplorer]

They do this because even paying retail and incurring the costs of shipping and importation, their cost (excluding questions of overhead) is less than if they purchased that merchandise wholesale from one of the authorized Canadian distributors.

This is much the same here in Australia. The local retail price can be as much as 30% higher than the cost of direct importation, incl. shipping, from the USA notwithstanding the retail product is sourced, wholesale, from local brand distributors - go figure! Does this mean the manufacturers are complicit in this - "the state of the market"? Fred

 

[MattKing]

I think it means that the third party distributors who are still in the business only carry film and analog materials as a low volume adjunct to their major lines.

One of the distributors that my favourite local store buys from (when their price and minimum order conditions make it advantageous) is mainly in the business of selling into supermarket chains - things like batteries and kitchen tools and seasonal goods and, oh yeah, some film.

The other, more photographically focused distributors that my favourite store deals with have either higher prices or more unreasonable minimum order requirements (or often both) than the supermarket supplier.

The manufacturers have no control over who decides to distribute their goods, unless they can find someone who is willing to pay extra for exclusive rights.

 

[mgb74]

My best local retail source has in the past filled customer's orders with merchandise they have purchased from B & H at retail prices and imported.

They do this because even paying retail and incurring the costs of shipping and importation, their cost (excluding questions of overhead) is less than if they purchased that merchandise wholesale from one of the authorized Canadian distributors.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if that is the case for many US retailers as well. Their wholesale cost being equal to or greater than B & H's retail price.

The distribution system is the victim - B & H and Adorama and a couple of others have, with their pricing and shipping policies have made it extremely dysfunctional.

That's a good point. Years ago I remember buying motor oil at retail (though on sale) for my wife's uncle who owned a service station (when they were more common). I could buy it cheaper than he could get it from his distributor.

But I'm still not sure we're seeing the same villain here. Perhaps the issue is manufacturers who won't sell direct (unless very high volume) and inefficient distribution chains. Selling direct raises complexity for manufacturers, but it's much easier now to find partners to handle order management and logistics than it was 20 years ago - at least in US.

 

[Newt_on_Swings]

This wasn't very surprising, I noticed this a number of months back when they marked certain items in store only because of ORM-D, Items such as Eclipse cleaning solution, and liquid developers such as the new 1L sized HC110. These items I had ordered from them in the past and had shipped.
Their statements sound like total BS, its more than likely that they are just dont want to sign off on all the ORM-D packaging or some reasoning to save on shipping costs from having to sign off and pack/label ORM-D items in a specific way, this is just an extra step to them. I highly doubt that they will stop shipping lithium batteries though (which is why their claims are so BS). This is why I buy from Freestyle, or Adorama if I must. I have been avoiding B&H ever since all the litigation came up about them discriminating in the hiring process and positions offered (zero blacks or asians hired when 100 hispanic workers were hired), different pay for non white workers, unequal and separate bathrooms and hygiene facilities, some terrible working conditions in their warehouses, and using some terrible tactics to prevent unionization (firing entire cleaning crew which tried to unionize). There is a lot more info if you just google about their discrimination case, and its all really terrible to read about. This is not a type of store I want to support, now even less to like about it as they are brushing off analog photographers. I really do miss calumet, they had good business hours and was closer. The only time B&H gets me is if I really need something right away on that day, such as film, or when I dont want to pay a crazy shipping surcharge when getting Hypam.

 

[faberryman]

For those not familiar with the discrimination claims:

EEOC Complaint

New York Times Article

I noticed Henryp was the management spokesperson in that as well.

 

[Renato Tonelli]

Perhaps, just perhaps, B&H does not want to be bothered with the additional demands of shipping chemistry.

My chemistry order from Freestyle arrived yesterday in three large boxes (FedEx Ground). Powder chemistry (XTOL, Dektol, D76 - several packets bagged in zip-lock bags) in one box; liquids spit up into two other boxes - each container individually bagged in its own zipped-locked bag. The ORM-D boxes were labeled as such.

Admittedly, the discussion is becoming pointless no matter the incongruities that have been pointed out.

 

[nolanr66]

Well film and chemicals is all I bought from them anyway. I will just move business to Freestyle which is only 300 mi from the house. I should have been buying from them anyway as they are in the film photography business.

It does make you wonder what the truth is. With DSLR sales down it would seem like they would want to maintain the business of film photographers. I imagine everyone that was quitting on film would have done so by now and that the film/chemical business would be stable such as it is. Maybe I am wrong as I am just speculating.

I am sure Freestyle and others will be happy to pick up some new customers.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Freestyle has its own film and paper emphasis, which I appreciate and use. B&H has a broader selection quite important to me, and has always been
honest and efficient in my many years as a customer. Things like MF and L

 

[DREW WILEY]

... (hit wrong button)... things like MF and LF cameras and films are obviously no longer viable to sell due to the absolute glut on the used market.
I also use specialty suppliers and local sources as needed. Otherwise, what a bunch of whiners! For years I have been an important member of an
analogous large very ethical distribution firm, mainly as a buyer, though neither photo nor web shpg related. So I understand how things work; and frankly, 99% of the complaints come from 1% of the customers, who amount to about .01% of actual sales. There's no law that states that you HAVE
to buy from B&H or any other specific store. But badmouthing them based on your own ignorance or rush to judgment doesn't do anyone in the
photographic community any good. Work with them instead to patch any chuckholes.

 

[flavio81]

The solution to your issues is very simple: don't do business with them!

That's one solution but not the only solution.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Works both ways. Why even try to accommodate someone who is going to badmouth your business straight out of the gate? Sometimes the same
people go clear to the manufacturer, not for legitimate issues, but due to their own habitual misuse of equipment. Sometimes interesting letters or
e-mails come back, such as, Thank you for your business, but in the future we recommend you select a different manufacturer ... I've outright booted
three customers out of here this year. It's rare, but at the time, I had a whole line of people waiting and applauding me for doing it. I made more in
sales in ten minutes each than I would have made with the complainers in a lifetime.

 

[nolanr66]

It's true. Why badmouth BHPhoto. They are a business and if they cannot provide the products or customer service that I need then fine. It's just a store and they can only do what they can do. It just turns out they cannot do what I need. Just realized that Freestyle ships HC110 and I thought I could just not have any. Turns out it was because I was shopping at the wrong store all along. So for me it's working out very well.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Different city, different rules. LA even differs significantly from here in the SF Bay area in that respect. But glad you've found a practical answer.
Water eventually gravitates to sea level; it just takes time. And that ironically is exactly why our rules differ even in the same state. LA found it
necessary to get draconian about what gets dumped into storm drains, especially by its resident petrochemical industry, while we have a lot of
cumulative pollution issues from old naval bases, current tech industries, and even the massive quantities of mercury used back in 1849 Gold Rush
which gradually worked clear downriver. NYC would understandably have concerns about its infrastructure within a concentrated high population density.

 

[nolanr66]

I have been out to the New Idrea Mines area a few times for photos. Only about 60mi from the house. The creek looks like orange juice from the continuing pollution from the mines. It's a super polluted site.
There is a bunch of old buildings and such to take photos of however there was a fire several years ago and I do not know what's left. I guess it will not ever be cleaned up. The Democrats sat on it and Trump is not an anti pollution guy as far as I know. I think the polluted orange juice will keep running far into the future.

 

[Sirius Glass]

I have been out to the New Idrea Mines area a few times for photos. Only about 60mi from the house. The creek looks like orange juice from the continuing pollution from the mines. It's a super polluted site.
There is a bunch of old buildings and such to take photos of however there was a fire several years ago and I do not know what's left. I guess it will not ever be cleaned up. The Democrats sat on it and Trump is not an anti pollution guy as far as I know. I think the polluted orange juice will keep running far into the future.

Actually the Republicans were blocking everything in Congress [the opposite of progress] and I would not count on anything getting done with the new Congress other than fights between the factions.

 

[nolanr66]

I was choosing my words carefully because I did not want the thread to get derailed into a political forum. But also add Calif state government is doing nothing about it either regardless of the party and there has been many Dem's and Republicans in office while the Orange juice flows.

But anyway I am going to order some Arista 100 from Freestyle and see how it goes until delivery. Also to see if I like the film.

 

[Sirius Glass]

OJ running is the creek is as bad as OJ running around slitting throats. Neither should be tolerated.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Gosh, you should see the mining pollution up above Telluride, Colorado - highly photogenic, but makes me think twice about hiking anywhere in certain areas where one might need to refill a canteen. Lots of old mines have wonderful contamination coloration. But it's the idea of allowing a handful of mines or pulp mills to pollute our rivers once again for the sake of a handful of jobs, at the risk of destroying not only the salmon fishing industry, but losing a hundreds times more economic potential in tourist dollars from those who seek relief. And as for logging in the lower 48 -
just ain't much left except salvage logging. And beetle-killed pine isn't good for much except book shelving. Fracking worries me even more - a fifteen or twenty year economic sugar high, then poisoned aquifers for centuries to come... As far as New Idrea goes, I thought visitation there was being discouraged due to the risk of hanta virus. Lovely country, but the roads go out from time to time. For me the best way from LA to SF is to take about three days on the spine of the Coast Range and never drive on pavement the whole time, except to cross a couple highway intersections. 4WD is helpful; some of the streams have no bridges over them.

 

[henryp]

I checked the Edwal LFN wetting agent's SDS sheet and, I believe, the team at B&H could ship that product anywhere without having any problems...even by air.

Sometimes it's not just the one item but everything else also being shipped, in which case an interaction between two items may be more problematic than each item individually.

 

[henryp]

Personally, I'd be more worried that the other dealers hear about B&H's action and decide to investigate if perhaps THEIR shipping procedures are not in accordance with regulations.

Amazon Is Fined Again For Shipping Hazardous Products