Attracting new film users

clayne · Jun 4, 2010

Alex1994 said:
I don't have an entire room at my disposal to dark out. I guess I could use tanks and a changing bag.

Alex, I'd reconsider talking to the managers of the darkroom in your town. Explain that you're serious and really desire to print analog. If they have a heart they shouldn't discount or disallow you just because you're 16. Heck, if anything I'd hope they'd be embracing the fact that you're young and interested in traditional workflow.

Alex1994 · Jun 4, 2010

Hi there

I tried the darkroom at the University; they said they'd be happy to help me out but for them to tutor me in how it all works they'd need a CRB (Criminal Records Bureau) check as is required by British law for anyone working with minors. These checks are very expensive and time-consuming. Similarly they'd also need to change their insurance policy, at great cost. Basically I'm getting bogged down in bureaucratic ********.

Otherwise I have tried 2 camera clubs, both say that their darkrooms were dismantled a few years back, despite evidence to the contrary on their websites. I have contacted a third in the area who say they have a darkroom and am waiting for their response.

jp498 · Jun 4, 2010

holmburgers said:
until I can print digital images in a darkroom, i'll be shooting film

You can print inverted digital images on transparency film on your epson printer, and then contact print that in the darkroom. You can then do alt process printing in sizes and variations not otherwise possible.

Thingy · Jun 4, 2010

z3guy said:
As a traditional photography instructor at a non-profit in central MA I am wondering how other attract new students to film. The instant gratification of the digital age makes it an uphill fight but I find that some "see the light" once they experience the darkroom. The question is how to get them through the door?

Thanks,
Paul:confused:

My method is to show them one of my 5x4 trannies taken in Svalbald, shot with Velvia 50. The wow factor seems to work a treat. I too acknowledge the advantages (and limits) of digital photography as I use both methods - for different purposes. I also find I frequently (too frequently sometimes... :rolleyes get stopped by people who assume that if you use a LF camera you must either be a professional or a nutter, but cannot really believe you are still using film. So when I am not busy, I show them what you can do with an LF camera (my super bright Maxwell screen can be viewed easily in daylight, with no dark cloth, on most occassions - perfect for demos ) and point out the advantages of film over lugging digital backs etc around. When you point out that you can still use lenses made over 100 years ago on a modern LF camera, that also impresses them

That said, I used to impress (very impressionable) American Research Assistants who when they asked me how far Hansard went back (the official report of the proceedings of the House of Commons) I would look bemused and point out they went back to 1067 - and we held copies of them! Oh how their jaws dropped.

Nutty person!

alexmacphee · Jun 4, 2010

Alex1994 said:
I tried the darkroom at the University; they said they'd be happy to help me out but for them to tutor me in how it all works they'd need a CRB (Criminal Records Bureau) check as is required by British law for anyone working with minors

A CRB check isn't required by law, but an organisation would probably, from a pragmatic perspective, ask for one on the defensive basis that knowingly employing someone to work with vulnerable groups who has been disqualified from working with them is a criminal offence. I gave up coaching (I used to coach minors and adults in the sport of fencing) because the layers of bureaucracy became thicker and thicker, and it wasn't worth the hassle for something I did for nothing.

I hope you have success in tracking down a camera club that caters for photographers.

Alex1994 · Jun 4, 2010

I think they are generally scared that I'd either hurt myself or break something; either way they'd be in big trouble with the law or the insurance company. Tried to reason with them (signed consent form) but despite that they just said no.

Thames Valley University have darkroom, but only for the access of students there - I'd have to enrol on a photography course, which isn't compatible with my other academic requirements.

No response from the 3rd camera club I've contacted...

alexmacphee · Jun 4, 2010

Ah, that sounds like they are just giving you the brush-off, which is a shame. I'd echo RTMoynihan's suggestion of going the film dev and scanning route. B&W film developing is easy, and I've been doing it since I was about thirteen. I didn't even use dev tanks back then, it was dish development under the bed at midnight with the curtains drawn, for 120 film used in an old Agfa Billy folding camera, eight 6x9 negs per roll, contact printed next morning on Kodak chloride paper. That was great stuff, you didn't need a darkroom, as it was very insensitive, and you exposed it by putting it in a contact frame against the negative, holding it up to the ceiling light for ten - twelve seconds, then developing in a dish in a corner away from direct light. Your own shadow was enough to keep it from fogging. My word, them was the days.

These days, I've had to box up my darkroom until some unconnected renovations are completed, so I'm still developing, but scanning to print on an Epson 4990. All you need is a tank and reel (I've used Paterson for about forty years), and a changing bag. I use D76 (it's virtually identical to Ilford's ID11 but significantly cheaper) or Rodinal, which has a shelf life longer than uranium. Some people say that powder developers like D76 are messy to work with, but that's nuts. If you can make a mug of coffee, you can make a litre of D76. Just don't confuse the two in the dark.

Put the film roll/cassette in the bag along with the tank and reel, with a small scissors. Put your hands in the sleeves of the bag, unfurl the film, cut the leader off if it's 35mm, and feed it in to the reel. Put the reel in the tank and close it, then take everything out of the bag. These days, you can't just pop the end caps off a 35mm cassette the way you used to (and which allowed you to reload the cassette from a bulk reel), the end caps are on too firmly for that and have to be pulled off with a tool like a bottle opener, which destroys the cassette for reuse. Alternatively - and this is how I do it - use a little film leader retrieval tool to bring the leader out, in daylight, then unfurl it in the bag.

To this day, I still get that rush of anticipation on opening the tank after the wash, to see the negative images spiralled round the film in the reel.

clayne · Jun 4, 2010

I think it's a shame that it's so difficult for Alex to even find a darkroom to print in among darkrooms that *still exist*. I would think proprietors would have more or less open arms. It's disturbing the resistance that is being met.

Marcus S · Jun 5, 2010

Alex,
There are several books that will explain how to develop b&w film and printing very well.
You might even find some in a used book store.
A great book is: 'Black & White Photographs' by Michael Freeman. Great instructions, without being overly technical. The basics are simple, just stick with the intructions and you will do just fine. Once you have mastered the basics, you can refine your skills by checking out advanced developing and printing techniques.
You can set up a temporary darkroom in any bathroom. Used smaller enlargers with a fairly good lens and darkroom equipment are quite inexpensive, thanks to the digital hysteria.
If you are stuck, APUG!

ozphoto · Jun 5, 2010

Analog photography is becoming the "niche" market in the business world; I have heard it being requested a few times, once, simply because the photographer of choice produced some outstanding imagery that the magazine wanted to recreate (style-wise) for a feature on cooking in Tuscany.

It is becoming more rare - the immediacy of digital has taken over, not to mention the "cheaper" costs to produce (in their eyes).

I think that perhaps, that by selling analog as a "hands on creation" rather than pixels and ink, is one way to extol its virtues and allure. And certainly showing a 5x4 or 6x17 trannie enlarged to a suitable "wow factor" size will help evoke the feeling that producing a picture the analog way still has a *power*.

I shoot digital for work - it has it's place and it is what my clients want; but for me, actually shooting images to please my creative side, that has to be film - I enjoy "creating" and spending the time to think things through from initial exposure to the finished print.

Getting the guys into the darkroom to get "down and dirty" with their photography is possibly the only way they will fully appreciate the allure and enjoyment that shooting film can bring.

Athiril · Jun 5, 2010

Well I think "Have you gone digital yet?" doesn't hold power over 1st world consumers of the new generation since that's all they know.

"Have you gone analog/film yet?" might excite at the prospect of something completely new and different

richard littlewood · Jun 6, 2010

I've got an A level student coming my way in June for a weeks 'work experience'. She only knows photography in terms of DSLR's and computers. I've got all that, but she wont be going anywhere near them. It's going to be film and a darkroom for her.

Alex1994 · Jun 9, 2010

Hello everyone

Contacted the final camera club in my area and they said they sold all their darkroom equipment a few years back, even prior to that no-one was really using it. Chairman of the club told me that a tiny minority of members still shot film.

Looks like I have to buy tanks and put up with it

David William White · Jun 9, 2010

Good for you. F*** 'em.

Alex1994 said:
Hello everyone

Contacted the final camera club in my area and they said they sold all their darkroom equipment a few years back, even prior to that no-one was really using it. Chairman of the club told me that a tiny minority of members still shot film.

Looks like I have to buy tanks and put up with it

Sirius Glass · Jun 9, 2010

Sunday I talked to two people.

The first made a comment about another Nikon user and I showed him a 35mm and 120 folder. Then I told him about APUG and KEH both he and his wife/girl friend were excited that he could get film equipment for less than a new d-----l camera!

The second was taking a film class at a local college. She knew about KEH and was excited about APUG.

If you are packing a film camera and someone makes a comment, it is time to talk FILM if they are interested.

Steve

frobozz · Jun 13, 2010

Sirius Glass said:
If you are packing a film camera and someone makes a comment, it is time to talk FILM if they are interested.

I shot my son's lacrosse games this season on slide film (when there was enough daylight) and HP5 (when there wasn't.) The only comment I ever got, from various other photographers at the games, was the "what is that stuff?! har har har" joke when they saw me reloading film. Yeah, that was funny the first couple of dozen times, but started to get old eventually...

So there are some times and places where being seen using film isn't going to win any converts. But my older son is eager for me to get the darkroom built. He used one in a photo class in college and is eager to get back to it, even though he normally shoots d*g*t*l.

Duncan

Sirius Glass · Jun 13, 2010

frobozz said:
I shot my son's lacrosse games this season on slide film (when there was enough daylight) and HP5 (when there wasn't.) The only comment I ever got, from various other photographers at the games, was the "what is that stuff?! har har har" joke when they saw me reloading film. Yeah, that was funny the first couple of dozen times, but started to get old eventually...

So there are some times and places where being seen using film isn't going to win any converts. But my older son is eager for me to get the darkroom built. He used one in a photo class in college and is eager to get back to it, even though he normally shoots d*g*t*l.

Duncan

You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make him drink.

Even if he is dehydrated.

Those that have the most to learn, are the most stubborn. Forget them and move on. Only talk to the ones who are interested.

Steve

clayne · Jun 13, 2010

frobozz said:
I shot my son's lacrosse games this season on slide film (when there was enough daylight) and HP5 (when there wasn't.) The only comment I ever got, from various other photographers at the games, was the "what is that stuff?! har har har" joke when they saw me reloading film. Yeah, that was funny the first couple of dozen times, but started to get old eventually...

By far the easiest place to find the latest pack of D-heads and gear fanatics is amateur and child sports games. Only other thing I can think of that comes close are weddings.

lxdude · Jun 13, 2010

Sirius Glass said:
You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make him drink.

Even if he is dehydrated.

Those that have the most to learn, are the most stubborn. Forget them and move on. Only talk to the ones who are interested.

Steve

Or,

You can lead a fool to a conclusion, but you can't make him think.

alexhill · Jun 13, 2010

z3guy said:
As a traditional photography instructor at a non-profit in central MA I am wondering how other attract new students to film. The instant gratification of the digital age makes it an uphill fight but I find that some "see the light" once they experience the darkroom. The question is how to get them through the door?

Thanks,
Paul:confused:

Being visible with gear, offer some open houses, or start making cyanotype murals outside with large groups. You can't make someone who doesn't care want to learn. But if your doing something with a cool camera (4x5 or something) you will get quite the crowd and its a perfect platform for explaining how cool photography is.

I use a couple hooks with kids at a camp I work at. I talk about building images with your bare hands. The good 'ol DIY ethic.

Controlling the camera : pitch goes something like this "Ever get bad photographs? Its because your smarter than that digital camera, you can control a film camera totally and make the images you want.

Displaying prints and demo-ing printing is the biggest hook. There is nothing more magical than seeing a latent image develop. You can talk about 'crafting the light with your bare hands' (aka burning and dodging ) .

To contradict myself, controlling a camera is crazy hard and lots of work. Why not offer a holga class? Talk about how this 20$ plastic camera can make beautiful dreamy images. Its probably the quickest and most painless introduction to photography. Lots of 'meh! lets try it'. Keeping it simple can be a great hook because alot of people are not technically oriented and that is a huge turn off.

Being excited about photography is perhaps the most important skill in getting others to want to try it.

SilverGlow · Jun 16, 2010

alexhill said:
Being visible with gear, offer some open houses, or start making cyanotype murals outside with large groups. You can't make someone who doesn't care want to learn. But if your doing something with a cool camera (4x5 or something) you will get quite the crowd and its a perfect platform for explaining how cool photography is.

I use a couple hooks with kids at a camp I work at. I talk about building images with your bare hands. The good 'ol DIY ethic.

Controlling the camera : pitch goes something like this "Ever get bad photographs? Its because your smarter than that digital camera, you can control a film camera totally and make the images you want.

Displaying prints and demo-ing printing is the biggest hook. There is nothing more magical than seeing a latent image develop. You can talk about 'crafting the light with your bare hands' (aka burning and dodging ) .

To contradict myself, controlling a camera is crazy hard and lots of work. Why not offer a holga class? Talk about how this 20$ plastic camera can make beautiful dreamy images. Its probably the quickest and most painless introduction to photography. Lots of 'meh! lets try it'. Keeping it simple can be a great hook because alot of people are not technically oriented and that is a huge turn off.

Being excited about photography is perhaps the most important skill in getting others to want to try it.

Why do you assume that a digital camera is always full auto, and cannot be used in manual mode?

All the things you wrote that you can do manually with a film camera, one can also do with a DSLR, in full manual mode.

I think this "I hate digital" mentality will do more to turn people off to film because is shows the worst side of us film shooters, as people that are irrational, threatened, and insecure with our choices in photography.

I find it far more beneficial to sell film as another way to do photography, to express one's self visually. To damage the other medium in order to prop up my choice of medium will always come across subjective and irrational.

When I'm asked why I shoot 35mm film instead of a DSLR, I give reasons that are:

1. True
2. NOT emotional.
3. NOT religious.
4. As another way to express myself visually.
5. Devoid of attacking digital.

And here they are:

Film provides 1-2 stops wider dynamic range.
Film shows lens diffractional issues less then digital.
Film shows richer tonal graduations.

There are of course other reasons to shoot film, but if you approach it from a pragmatic, true, and unemotional perspective people are much more likely to listen and give film a try.

moki · Jun 16, 2010

I've already convinced a few friends to at least try film photography and 2 actually loved it and never shot digital again. How did I do this? Very easy... I just gave them one of my old, manual 35mm SLRs and a roll of film for a few days and some basic instructions. Afterwards I made some proper prints of the best pictures for them.

Most people really like the workflow of setting aperture and shutter speed, manual focusing and the feeling of a good, heavy camera, compared to fully automatic digital pieces of plastic. There are a few people who just want to press the button and let the camera do the rest, but many prefer to have full control over what the camera is doing - something that's not even possible with most compact digital cameras (DSLRs are a different story though)

It's not like I need to make anyone do something they don't want. When someone's happier shooting digital and not convinced by handling and results, that's no problem for me. Digital is not the devil, only another way. I can't do more than introduce them to the wonderful world of film.

alexhill · Jun 16, 2010

SilverGlow said:
Why do you assume that a digital camera is always full auto, and cannot be used in manual mode?

All the things you wrote that you can do manually with a film camera, one can also do with a DSLR, in full manual mode.

I think this "I hate digital" mentality will do more to turn people off to film because is shows the worst side of us film shooters, as people that are irrational, threatened, and insecure with our choices in photography.

I find it far more beneficial to sell film as another way to do photography, to express one's self visually. To damage the other medium in order to prop up my choice of medium will always come across subjective and irrational.

When I'm asked why I shoot 35mm film instead of a DSLR, I give reasons that are:

1. True
2. NOT emotional.
3. NOT religious.
4. As another way to express myself visually.
5. Devoid of attacking digital.

And here they are:

Film provides 1-2 stops wider dynamic range.
Film shows lens diffractional issues less then digital.
Film shows richer tonal graduations.

There are of course other reasons to shoot film, but if you approach it from a pragmatic, true, and unemotional perspective people are much more likely to listen and give film a try.

I was focusing on film because thats what the original poster was asking for. I learned how f stops and shutter speeds worked from digital, it gave me a huge head start versus film. I got very good as guessing exposures, and knew exactly how much motion blur a speed would give. I shot alot. But again, OP asked for film tips and I gave him what I knew.

I'm going to disagree on avoiding emotional reasons for photographic analog. The connection I build with an image through taking it, developing it, discovering how to print it, and finally toning it... Its a good friend by the end. I know its in's and outs. Thats an emotional connection and I am far more attached to it.

I do get attached to my digital stuff, but not as often.

The emotional attachment is much more powerful than a couple stops of dynamic range. If I am going all out to expand my range with over exposing/ under developing and blah blah blah. 30 seconds of HDR gets the same thing.

But when I talk about emotional attachment to others, I focus on the romanticism of wet photography. I really love it

Ric Trexell · Jun 16, 2010

I'll just be glad to see real pictures.

I mainly come into contact with digital camera users in my family. My neices kids all have those little digital cameras. A few months ago we were all together and I knew my great-neice had never seen my RB67. She was showing me her new Nikon P&S digital and I asked her if she ever saw my new camera. When I brought it out they were shocked at the size. I don't try to impress them with the benefits of film, I would be just be glad if they would actually make pictures that I can see. I show them my album of 4X6 shots and they show me a little 1 X 2 inch screen with a bunch of quick shots of silliness. I would guess 99% of them never get transfered to a hard drive or printer, so they will always be with them until they lose the camera. Rather than push film or digital, I tell them about keeping their pictures on archival CD's and properly storing them. Ofcourse that goes in one ear and out the other, but that tells me it wouldn't make much difference if they used film or digital, they are some day only going to have a few pictures. Ric.

tkamiya · Jun 16, 2010

My approach to film usage is that _I_ use film (B&W only) because I like what I see. It gives me the kind of image I'd like to make. Not that I can't make similar image using digital but film simply gives it to me. The result pleases me when I get it right. It expresses what I wanted to show. On the other hand, I use digital for color because, well, I like what I see.

When I asked, I explain this just like I'm typing it in here. I have no intention on converting anyone. If that person is interested, then he/she has an option to try it. I even offer to process the film for them for free. My colleague was interested in it because it reminded him of old days, and his kids were intrigued because they have NEVER used film. I doubt they will become film user because it was just a curiosity thing for them.

I see both media, film and digital, both having advantages and disadvantages. To me, trying to say which is superior and trying to convert someone because of it is an futile effort. Instead, I show them what I do and why I do it, and leave the choice entirely up to them.

I see the original poster is a teacher. Isn't a job of teacher show students options, provide opportunities, and provide support when students make their own choice? If this is the case, then my approach would be to expose them to film, do few sessions two to run them through the process, maybe assign a job or two, and see what develops. (puns intended)

I'd image his students are mostly young. Well, then, they can't possibly be interested or not interested in things they've never experienced. I'd be all for providing that first experience.

Attracting new film users

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