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ATP "vs" Kodak TP; Please Look And Explain Something Unusual...

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ath

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FYI, the response came from Hartmuth Schröder, Head of Maco.

IMO Maco has still a long way to go regarding service for end-customers.

I suggest to contact Detlev Ludwig (Germany) at ludwig@gigabitfilm.de.
First, he designs developers like this and second, he mentioned these problems ("Isohelie") during his investigations to improve high resolution photography. In fact he mentioned here that he found these artifacts when testing "his" film HDR (which is believed to be identical to ATP) with new developers. His conclusion was silver contamination of the tank.
He might be very grateful to put his hand on your development tank for investigation.
 
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Contrastique

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Thanx for your reply.
So that would mean the RLC developer is extremely sensitive for silver residues...that could be a plausible answer. I mean, my tank and spirals rinse along with the films for over half an hour and are thouroughly being dried but it could be I guess that there's still some silver left..I guess?
It's the answer I can make the most of though.
Have to search how I can clean my tank and spirals better then...I think I'm just gonna buy a new thank for these purposes and keep them seperated from the rest of the developers / films.
Too bad it's all in germain, my germain sucks a little :smile: but thanx again for that link!
 

ath

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It's not the developer that is sensitive to silver, it's the film. But I guess, the developer has some influence here.
To clean the tank and spools from residual silver you can use bleach (e.g. farmers reducer) or blix from C41 / RA4 process.
The silver contamination is not a problem with normal films and builds up during development. Washing or fixing does not remove this silver.
 

Iwagoshi

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Curious as to why Fotohuis has not chimed in when it was his ATP-RLC examples that started this endeavor.

Fotohuis: "Restricted Access," what does that mean?
 
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Contrastique

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That would be odd.
The Kodak TP and Rollei ATP both suffer from the "solarization" when developed in RLC but both not when being developed in the Kodak HC110...Same tank, same reels so that makes me think it's the developer or the way I used it.

I could try and wash the equip with bleach. I read somehere over here that normal household bleach should work as well..
 

Wishy

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Well, I've developed my roll. A sample, you'll need to view it large:



Notice the solarisation. Very disappointed with a film which I worked hard to expose correctly, were extra dilligent with cleaning (Water, Toothbrush, Water, Tetenal Exargent Silver remover, Water, then finally use) and very careful to follow all guidelines the development process - including using distilled water

I've uploaded a 3200 DPI Scan so you can see the pretty much grainless image with plenty of resolution. So if there wasn't something wrong with the development process this would be a very good combo.

RLC Batch number is 74429
Rollei ATP 1.1 - Art No:ATP2011 Em.No 5308.02 Entw bls 01/2011
 
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Nicholas Lindan

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Notice the solarisation.

Bizarre.

I was wrong about the cause before, and I am sure I can be wrong again, but here goes:

It's doesn't look like solarization to me. In solarization the HD curve turns back on itself, and the blacks become whites if the print is solarized or the whites become blacks if the negative is solarized. Examples to the left.

This looks to me like posterization, where a range of grays instead of being smooth are represented as a small number of discrete tones - instead of a 100 greys the photo only has 10. Examples to the right.

I'll take a WAG and say it is somehow related to quantized grain sizes in the emulsion. The emulsion contains a mixture of grain sizes but all the small grains are the same size, all the medium grains are the same size and all the large grains are the same size.

It is possible the effect comes about as grain size equates (first order) to film speed, and each emulsion is lithographic: either fully developed or not developed. The small grain emulsion (slow) may have many grains and can achieve a high density and the large grain emulsion (fast) is sparse and can only manage densities suitable for shadow details.

This may have come about by trying to make a continuous tone emulsion on a microfilm manufacturing line. Lithographic film and microfilm owe their high contrast to uniform grain size. If batches of emulsion were made with uniform grains, each batch containing a different size, and then blended together this may explain the effect.

Technical Pan, by this logic, had a true continuum of grain size. I never had it posterize.

I'd hazard a guess the reason the manufacturer and reps are silent on the issue is they haven't got much of an idea about what is happening, or they know what is happening but can't find any way to fix it.

What are Photo Engineer's views on this phenomena?
 

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Tom Hoskinson

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Demi-Water?

Well, finished the second batch and the problem is still there. I'm really dissapointed as to I don't know what to change with the next session. Berlin is in one and a half week and I'm not really looking forward "screwing up" the rest of the films too.
I'll post an example pic, don't take the photo seriously as the negs are underexposed due to a failed experiment....
nr33smallzp9.jpg


I dilluted the developer with demi-water this time. Treated them in a room with hardly any light. Agitated continuously the entire first minute as I forget the first 10 seconds and after that 5 every 30. Kept the dillution 1+4 as I expected my negs to be underexposed in order to compensate a little.
No stop used again as advised on the datasheet, which I'm gonna do next time as that's the only thing I normally do and didn't do now.
Dilluted the fixer 2x more than normal.
I'm really clueless and sad my experiment failed.

I just sent Rollei an email to see if they can help me out. I really hope so. I would like to get this film to work properly as it does look really promising.

I assume that demi-water is deionized water (sometimes known as demineralized water)??
 

Henning Serger

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In general you have to expose these kind of films very exactly. The effects you describe can occur by heavy overexpose for example. I would recommend the Rollei ATP DC and the Moersch flattec developer for the Rollei ATP film. To my experience and the experience of a good friend you can get the best and most consistent results with this special developers for the ATP. You need some practice and experience with these combinations, but you can get excellent results when you know their strengths and limitations.

Best regards,
Henning
 
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Contrastique

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I assume that demi-water is deionized water (sometimes known as demineralized water)??
Yes, I used demineralized water. From everything I read the only effect "bad" water causes is that it gives black spots in the negative, embedded in the emulsion layer and not resulting in the effect Wishy and I both experienced.

Thank you Wishy for posting up your experiences and thanx to linking to the larger image as it contains several comments of which one is from Fotohuis.
Really too bad he can't post it up here, as it does contain some helpful information which not many people can provide us with here appearantly, at least not on this subject.

I just got back from Berlin and got an email back from Rollei. I'll post it below but I think I somewhat have my answer which is similar to the post of Henning (thank you as well :smile: ).

"Hi Indra,

we have received your sample film strips. We recognize in a film strip both a "solarisation effect" and ordinary images without this effect. It is precisely the consequence of those specialists, who have being working with the Technical Pan film for 20 years now: It was extremly overexposed! This type of exposure is in professional circles very popular, if these efects are intended.

You must therefore, arrange your exposures to the requirements of the film/developer needs.

With the ROLLEI RLC developer, you have a special developer specifically produced for the community of Technical Pan film users. Its task is to help to bend the GRADATION of the film, and thus, to tap for the image photography. If you use an HC110, then the gradation is harder and there are effects, which can increase the drama. With a highly concentrated print developer you are going to force this effect also.

The entry into the world of Technical Pan films is all other than simple!

But, the results can be extremely interesting!

Your film strips with some sample films are on the way back to you.

With kind regards

Hartmuth"

Especially the last photo I posted here contained a white spot which is due overexposure. Well, to be more exact, because the contrast in the photo was too high, as in the light part being too light compared to the dark parts, resulting in an overexposed part of the image where you can also find the "solarizing effect" taking place. It does not affect the darker parts.

What kind of bothers me is that when using a white background, like in the watch-photos, it's also "overexposed" because that's where I get this effect as well, but the negatives were actually kind of grey and still this effect appears.
I will keep on testing this combination because I want to research what's causing this. I'll shoot another ATP bracketing the same set-up and developing again in RLC and see what I'll come up with.

I got a testkit from Rollei which is really great but not with the RLC developer but with the DC developer which makes me think that that is the specific developer for this kind of film and not the RLC. Or the RLC is much more sensitive to decent exposure than the DC, the latter providing you with more freedom to screw around <---- merely speculating...again..but we'll see.

Thank you all for commenting. It gets us closer to pinpointing exactly where it went wrong and it sure is an interesting process :smile:

The Berlin films will be developed in HC110 though as I know what I'll get, although I'll have to determine the perfect dillution first.
 
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I just finished my test with the ATP. I shot a grey object and bracketed the exposure while writing everything down after each shot. I got my tank and new reels in so I'll develop the roll later on today and at least will be able to exclude the whole silver residue issue.
This will probably be my last attempt with the RLC to get it right and if it again doesn't work out, well, that's that. If I would like to have this "solarizing effect" in the future I now at least know how to get it :wink:
The next batch after this one will be developed in the DC developer as that appears to be the dedicated developer, which the RLC is clearly not.
I'll post up impressions later on.
 

Paul Verizzo

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Pyrazolidone is just shorthand for phenidone and its newer derivatives that may or may not be used in some of these low contrast developers.
In the original phenidone based type like H&W Control, the oxidation product of phenidone is an inhibitor of development that needs to be removed by agitation.It is these early types of low contrast developers that are discussed in the Film Developing Cookbook.

Phenidone is the shorthand for Pyrazolidone....... :D
 
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Contrastique

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Well, for the ones interested I have the results from the test batch. I have them for quite a while now, was too lazy to post it up.

I still can't get it right. The tank I used was brand new, so were the reels so that silver residue issue is out of the picture now.
I bracketed the esposure and the effect is not visible on all photos. The dark ones are fine but when it hits high greys the issue occurs again. I am tired of the developer. I don't know what to do anymore. I tried a whole lot of things. Next up is the batch with the DC developer which supposedly is a better, specifically suited developer for this film. Let's hope so...
 

dr5chrome

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..the problem

..what causes this is the use of a non-acid or low-acid fix.

if you are having this condition you need to use a stop bath, a strong one!
i would also add some sodium sulfite to the stop just to make sure your developer action is truly stopped.

use a good fix. the Kodak rapid fix is best.

leave the lights off till the film is completely fixed.

regards

dw



As you might have read in the previous thread I shot some ATP and developed in HC110 and Rollei RLC. Did the same with the Kodak TP.

Something strange happened with the TP and ATP in the RLC developer and I'm not sure what it is. It looks like some sort of liquify-photoshopfilter applied in the unsharp parts but it's in the negative for sure. I first thought with the TP that it had something to do with its too short development but then I noticed the same thing to occur with the ATP as well... I really can't explain it.

First batch:
ATP & TP developed for 6 minutes in Rollei RLC. ATP treated as a 40 asa, TP treated as a 25 asa. TP really underdeveloped so the contrast has been a bit enhanced in photoshop. I think it will be quite printable though as the "effect" looks pretty cool to me so I'll definitely will give that a go.
ATP has not been photoshopped except for dust removal and I made the landscape photo a little darker.

Second batch:
ATP and TP developed for 5 minutes in HC110. Same asa values. ATP a tad overdeveloped as I lost some detail in the highlights. No changes in photoshop except for dust removal.

The grain seems with both films a lot less when developed in HC110 then in the RLC but maybe I did something wrong...and I'm looking at scans...
 

WRSchmalfuss

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Who uses "other chemicals" as recommended, may end up with "other results". To make the best use for the image photography of the ROLLEI ATP1.1 film, he is especially tuned to the recommended Rollei ATP DC developer, and to apply to the detailed rules. Any use of other individual chemicals, will show different results.
 
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