At which shutter speed does the mirror slap from a Hasseblabec irrelevant for handheld photography?

Sirius Glass said:

I too can handhold the Hasselblad with the 80mm lens 1/60 second if I need to.

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Juan Valdenebro said:

That's great!

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I rather use 1/125 second.

Ansel Adams, in one of his books, related the story of sharpness problems with a Hasselblad bolted to some massive Majestic brand tripod that he owned. It seems there was a resonant frequency between the mirror or barndoors and the tripod that set up a vibration that affected his photos. As I understood it, his point was that you may find *some* equipment combinations to be a problem, and that many other combinations might be just fine.

Juan Valdenebro said:

Are you talking about the slow speeds I won't use?
Or did you mean that happens at fast shutter speeds too?
What speed would you use as minimum for hand holding with an 80mm?
And about you saying unlikely: best low light shooters make 3 or 4 exposures to pick the one taken at that moment when the camera is still between movements...

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It isn't the camera that imparts the movement when shooting hand-held, it is the photographer.
Faster shutter speeds minimize the damage from movement.
So any vibration induced movement will normally cause less problem with higher shutter speeds.
Hasselblads and I don't get along particularly well - their ergonomics don't suit my abilities.
The closest comparable I use is a Mamiya 645. With the left-hand electronic trigger grip and the prism finder I can, using my best, hard earned technique and when conditions are optimum, obtain reasonable results hand-held at 1/60 second.
But that isn't something inherent in the camera. That is a combination of experience, technique, appropriate accessories and a suitable match between the accessorized camera and the photographer.

One more thought: monopod.

BrianShaw said:

One more thought: monopod.

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Great thought. They are a great compromise between handheld and a full tripod- really helps.

Practice shooting hand held. With good technique (stance, grip, breathing, shutter squeeze) you can shoot at surprisingly slow shutter speeds with a Hasselblad and get very sharp results. I have shot the 100mm Planar hand held at 1/60th before, or the 50mm Distagon at 1/30th, with good success.

I must be some kind of freak - when I was shooting a hasselblad, I would routinely pull off 1/30th with more than acceptable sharpness (to me, anyway). With my Mamiya RZ67, I've pulled off 1/15th (and before you call bs, here's the proof:



That was hand-held, pointing straight up, with the 50mm f4.5 wide open. And if there's a camera that should be affected by "mirror slap", the RZ sounds like a cannon going off in comparison to a Hasselblad.

With my Rolleiflex, I can go much lower - I've pulled off 1 second before, but I start to question the wisdom of the attempt around 1/4 second.

BrianShaw said:

One more thought: monopod.

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Wildi suggests that the key to monopod use is to extend the leg forward lke a third leg, rather than simply verticle. Makes sense to me.
I agree with SG that mirror slap is largely a myth, but I would think that a properly serviced camera would help in this respect, with everything running smoothly and synchronized. I hand-hold successfully using 400 iso film and my 60mm lens. Very sharp in all respects. I recently tried it successfully hand-held with my 555eld, which surprised me.

The size of final print you want to make with what you regard as critical sharpness while retaining what you regard as an adequate depth of field at that print size are going to define what you perceive as a handholdable limit far more than any casual rule of thumb that ignores final print scale. I use a Pentax 6x7 and the number of times I've put it on a tripod in the last 10 years may well be in the single digit category. 1/125 is fine, 1/60 often ok if you're calm, 1/30 borderline. Much depends on how you hold the camera and fire the release.

GLS said:

Practice shooting hand held. With good technique (stance, grip, breathing, shutter squeeze) you can shoot at surprisingly slow shutter speeds with a Hasselblad and get very sharp results. I have shot the 100mm Planar hand held at 1/60th before, or the 50mm Distagon at 1/30th, with good success.

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Me too, but I prefer not to.

There is very little difference between the method of shooting with a camera or a gun For best results hold camera/gun gently (gripping with force only causes shake.) You can’t muscle either camera or gun. Mass helps steady both. Light, flimsy cameras are harder to hold steady than those with mass. A Hasselblad has mass. Push button/ pull trigger gently and smoothly. Jerking either will cause shake.
Keep in mind that VH was a birder. The camera was initially designed to be hand held.
Rather than using the hands and fingers for framing, use hips and arms, all the while keeping body, hands and fingers relaxed and loose. There is a big difference between the ability of the human body to absorb vibrations and a rigid tripod. The body is better. Of course, longer lenses do better with a tripod, just like heavy machine guns.
I believe that part of the cause for camera shake with any SLR, from Hasselblad to Pentax 110, is the blackout. “Did I really get the picture I wanted?” Of course, with a tripod the shutter can be fired while looking at the subject. So many choices!
Then there is the question of how much of the results of camera shake a given photographer tolerates. I know somebody who has their turntable sitting on a imbedded concrete mass to prevent shake...I could never detect any difference. I suppose sensitive instruments can, but not my ears.

If a monopod is used and there is a wall right behind you that you can lean back on in comfort, use the wall to brace yourself and put the camera strap (which is in a shortened position) around your neck and put some tension forward on the camera, as you shoot, for extra stability.

You can also use the monopod and camera strap in a free standing shot, firmly tensioning the camera forward and downward, but wherever there is a support that can make You more stable, standing or sitting or leaning, use it, as it will go some way to marking for a stable camera position, and you can get some very slow shutter speeds with wide apertures, with experience on what a STABLE platform position feels like,

If you mainly shoot 35mm or slr or rangefinder and other cameras that do no have the weight of a 6x6 Hasselblad or similar camera, you should, IMO, make a practice, as you use the camera, of dropping the shutter speed and bracing wherever you are shooting from, to see what is possible, you can surprise yourself with practice and making prints large enough to judge the results.

The Hasselblad and similar, heavier cameras need strong handling skills, and besides experience, being able just to hold the camera firmly in your hand is the start of good control.

I suggest you keep a 'squeeze-grip inverted 'V' exerciser at your table where you take at least one meal a day, and use it to do small sets, working up to three sets of 25, after the meal, to increase hand strength as well as forearm strength.

Even young guys and gals need to be able to hold, with power and command, the camera, without any issue whatsoever, for extender periodsnand that only comes with about three minutes of this exercise.

IMO.

Beginning to sound like we've been isolating for a while , Peter

TheFlyingCamera said:

I must be some kind of freak - when I was shooting a hasselblad, I would routinely pull off 1/30th with more than acceptable sharpness (to me, anyway). With my Mamiya RZ67, I've pulled off 1/15th (and before you call bs, here's the proof:



That was hand-held, pointing straight up, with the 50mm f4.5 wide open. And if there's a camera that should be affected by "mirror slap", the RZ sounds like a cannon going off in comparison to a Hasselblad.

With my Rolleiflex, I can go much lower - I've pulled off 1 second before, but I start to question the wisdom of the attempt around 1/4 second.

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Did Mamiya do something stupid with RZ? Because RB is one of the sweetest / softest mirror movements around.

Witold said:

Did Mamiya do something stupid with RZ? Because RB is one of the sweetest / softest mirror movements around.

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I don't think so- It's still very smooth. They're just not quiet - at least not quiet in comparison to my Rollei

Sirius Glass said:

As long as the shutter speed is shorter than 1/[lens focal length] seconds I have never had a problem with the so-called non-existent Hasselblad mirror slap. The so-called non-existent Hasselblad mirror slap is a myth and a hoax started by the very jealous Leica RF users started because they are overly proud of their quiet shutters and that cannot accept that some would use a camera other than a beloved Leica RF camera in spite of its lack of what-you-see-is-what-you get focus system.

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FAKE NEWS!! lol

Juan Valdenebro said:

I don't have many rolls right now as for spending one in a test... I have one fp4, one tri-x and one TMY, that's all, so no way!
I love the size and weight of my Hasselblad with its 80, so I won't get a TLR or RF...
(Moderators' help please: I don't know if this is the right forum for this question...)
My idea is using the 80 alone for this, no other lens... And only for static subjects photography... For real street, DOF, etc., my RF with a 35 is never away, or I feel anguish about vanishing scenes coming...
Thanks...

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Mirror slap was a reason for me to dumb my Hasselblad 500.

ic-racer said:

In the 1980s I was shooing some slide film for a magazine article on a vintage race car. I had my Rolleiflex SLX on a sturdy tripod but did not have my electronic cable release (and was unable to pre-release the mirror). I used 1/30 second (Kodakrome 25) All the images had slight motion blur
Years later, around 1999 I attached the pistol grip, the massive 40mm Distagon and heavy viewing prism. With that setup I shot a body of B&W work at night at 1/30 and they came out fine. So, increasing the rotational inertial mass around the mirror swing axis helps.

View attachment 244750

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Camera shake becomes more apparent the larger the print. What size were you printing?

cjbecker said:

One thing that I did pretty regularly when I was shooting the hasselblad more, was pre-release the mirror before I would shoot the picture. I would do it at pretty much any shutter speed, not sure if it really helps too much but it was something I did. I also have the sports finder always attached to the side of the camera. If I have the time, I focus with the gg + magnifier, then shoot with the sportsfinder.

All of that was for handholding, if on a tripod, I ALWAYS pre-release.

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I always use a tripod with my Mamiya RB67 and lock the mirror up before releasing the shutter. I've tried hand-holding, but I need a high shutter speed (and higher speed film) to work well. For my landscape shooting, a tripod just makes everything easier, including bracketing, another advantage of using a tripod. Also, using smaller apertures to extend DOF for landscapes, makes slower shutter speeds mandatory.

Juan Valdenebro said:

That's good to know, bdial...
Then maybe the mirror slap worry is no more than just a myth...

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Mirror slap seems to be more of a problem at speeds around 1/4 second to let's say 1/60. Faster shutter and timed exposure of seconds tend to eliminate the shake issue.

Juan Valdenebro said:

Makes sense... It seems it's all good news... I guess it means with TMY and 1/250, natural soft light can be used, at box speed, inside the f/5.6 - f/2.8 range... That would be enough in my case... I'm excited at this... If I remember well, I have never used my Hasselblad without a tripod, what a pity !

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Juan what are you shooting? Landscapes, still lifes, portraits, with or without artificial light? f/5.6 - f/2.8 has a narrow DOF.

itsdoable said:

Technically, "mirror slap" is only a problem on a tripod, and not an issue with handheld.

Minimum shutter speed to prevent camera motion during handheld photography is a different matter, and addressed by the previous posts.

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Why is that?

TheFlyingCamera said:

I must be some kind of freak - when I was shooting a hasselblad, I would routinely pull off 1/30th with more than acceptable sharpness (to me, anyway). With my Mamiya RZ67, I've pulled off 1/15th (and before you call bs, here's the proof:



That was hand-held, pointing straight up, with the 50mm f4.5 wide open. And if there's a camera that should be affected by "mirror slap", the RZ sounds like a cannon going off in comparison to a Hasselblad.

With my Rolleiflex, I can go much lower - I've pulled off 1 second before, but I start to question the wisdom of the attempt around 1/4 second.

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I once pulled off a 1/4 on a RB67. But it was probably luck, 1 in 50 chance. That's no way to be consistent. That's why I always use a tripod. The trees may move, but my camera doesn't. Nice shot. It reminds me of those old TV sign-off screens at 2am.

1 over 2f

Your print size can be a large factor in mirror slap decisions.

Just because I shoot 6x6 does not mean I'm going to print larger than 7"x7" or 10"x10" images.

You might just be pleasantly surprised by how happy a smaller than poster size print will make you vs. 20"x30" and up.