Asymmetric Tilts & Swings

[JackRosa]

I have this camera with asymmetric tilts & swings and, curiously, I almost fail to see the magic of having this feature.:confused::confused:

It seems as if every time I want to keep 2 objects in focus (using camera movements), the 2 objects never fall on the "lines" where asymmetric movements would keep both objects in sharp focus.

Am I missing something? :confused:

Insight would be most appreciated.

 

[cliveh]

These features have many advantages and applications in photography and I'm sure others will point you in the right direction for literature on how to use them.

 

[Sirius Glass]

It is time for GAS to kick in. The only solution to your problem is to start buying more cameras. The good news is that your problem can be cured with an infusion of money.

 

[JackRosa]

These features have many advantages and applications in photography and I'm sure others will point you in the right direction for literature on how to use them.

I think I know to to use these features (and the principle behind them); I just can't seem to get the benefit of these features. Perhaps I am missing something.

 

[cliveh]

I think I know to to use these features (and the principle behind them); I just can't seem to get the benefit of these features. Perhaps I am missing something.

Well to site just one instance, with the use of cross front you can photograph a subject off to one side, without showing what may be directly in front of it.

 

[ic-racer]

It just lets you keep one object in focus when tilting; you can adjust the tilt axis so an object from upper middle or lower position stays in focus.

 

[AgX]

It seems as if every time I want to keep 2 objects in focus (using camera movements), the 2 objects never fall on the "lines" where asymmetric movements would keep both objects in sharp focus.

That is why Linhof, long ago introduced cameras that enable to place tilt and swing axis deliberately at one object, keeping original framing. Focus is set at that object and then the focal plane is swung to set the other object into focus too. Simple as that.
Others took over this design.


Thus just assymmetry is not the solution.

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

Depends on the camera, but here's how it works on a Sinar P/P2:

The purpose of asymmetric tilts is to make it easy to measure the tilt angle, but not necessarily on the standard where the tilt will be applied, and not necessarily in the final composition.

Say one of the targets doesn't fall on the dotted line. Use rise/fall/shift to put the dotted line on that object. Now tilt/swing the rear standard to get the other object in focus. It need not fall on a dotted line. You now can read the tilt/swing angle from the relevant scale, and if you want to apply the tilt on the front standard instead of the rear standard, you can set the complementary tilt on the front standard (so if the angle measured on the rear standard is +5 deg., set the front standard to -5 deg.), and return the rear standard to zero. This lets you use the front standard to adjust the focal plane, the rear standard to change the shape of objects in the image. If you apply additional rear tilt after setting the front tilt, you'll have to adjust the front tilt to compensate for the difference, and keep the focal plane in the same place.

When you've "transferred" the tilt/swing movement from the rear standard to the front standard in this way, you should be able to make one focus movement, ideally on the rear standard, to get everything back into focus, and you can use rise/fall/shift again to restore your composition.

The Linhof Master GTL lets you adjust the tilt and swing axes, so that instead of using the dotted lines, you just put the axis where you need it, without changing the composition.

I'm not sure how the Ebony asymmetric tilts work in this regard, but if you have a camera without scales like a Sinar, you can always measure the swing and tilt angles with a clinometer and a compass. I have a Sunnto Tandem clinometer-compass (find them second hand on eBay from guys who used them to install satellite dishes), but there are also apps for that now on an iPhone, and I presume other smartphones.

 

[Simon Howers]

Asymetrics

I have this camera with asymmetric tilts & swings and, curiously, I almost fail to see the magic of having this feature.:confused::confused:

Insight would be most appreciated.

Jack, go to Dead Link Removed

Simon

 

[Richard Man]

I have never used asymmetrical swing, and asymmetrical tilt only on the Chamonix F1. Other cameras may implement it different. Fundamentally, the problem it solves is the "how do you get both foreground and background subjects in focus?" Tilting uses the Scheimpflug Principle to achieve that. Assuming you know that already and are asking "why asymmetrical," then the answer is that with the F1, first you put the far object in focus, line up on the dotted line toward the bottom, now when you use the asym. tilt to get the close object in focus, thn far object will not move away from the focus point. A normal tilt would require focus-tilt-focus-tilt iterations.

Note: it does not work in all cases, the far object has to be on the dotted line, and the close object is somewhat distorted since you are tilting the back, but when it works, it is sweet...

 

[JackRosa]

Thank you all for your posts on this subject. I understand how asymmetric movements work; the issue that has given me headaches is that the "target" points I want to keep in focus rarely fall on the dotted lines.

The post by David has given me an idea: (a) use rise/fall/shift to place the point of interest on the dotted line; use the asymmetric movements; then re-position camera, or (b) measure the angle and transfer said angle to the front standard.

I am going to look into the clinometer-compass possibility. The Ebony does not have scales.

Again, THANKS for taking the time to help.

 

[ic-racer]

I misunderstood you to mean you are working with "variable tilt axis" like Horseman.

 

[JackRosa]

I misunderstood you to mean you are working with "variable tilt axis" like Horseman.

IC: I am working with asymmetric tilt & swing a la Ebony.

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

The post by David has given me an idea: (a) use rise/fall/shift to place the point of interest on the dotted line; use the asymmetric movements; then re-position camera, or (b) measure the angle and transfer said angle to the front standard.

Don't reposition the camera after tilting, or you'll change the relationship between the film plane, lens plane, and subject plane, and you'll need to change the tilt angle again.

Use rise/fall/shift to position the point of interest on the dotted line, tilt/swing on the rear standard, transfer the movement to the front standard if desired, and then use rise/fall/tilt to restore the original composition, now with tilt applied.

 

[JackRosa]

Don't Reposition Camera

Don't reposition the camera after tilting, or you'll change the relationship between the film plane, lens plane, and subject plane, and you'll need to change the tilt angle again.

Use rise/fall/shift to position the point of interest on the dotted line, tilt/swing on the rear standard, transfer the movement to the front standard if desired, and then use rise/fall/tilt to restore the original composition, now with tilt applied.

Got it David. Thanks.

 

[DREW WILEY]

It can be a nice feature for tabletop studio photography where you might need to tilt the entire camera downward and have the luxury of working on a consistent focal plane. By way of distinction, many architectural shots use the camera leveled, where yaw is not an issue. In
portrait photography, strong movements tend to be uncommon. And then in landscape photography, the intersection of planes is often too
complex to simply use some on-camera formula like this (unless you're on the Plains, if you'll excuse a pun). I've worked for years with yaw-free
Sinars, and now prefer to use the earlier non-yaw-free Sinar Norma for my monorail needs. And neither of my folding field cameras have
asymmetric tilts. It's not a feature I ever seemed to use anyway, when I did have it.

 

[Mainecoonmaniac]

Drew is right. In the days when table top commercial photographer did for example catalog work, asymmetrical swings and tilts sped up setting up the swings and tilts. Especially during the 80's when everything had to be sharp. When the pictorialism made a bit of a comeback with the bokeh crazy, it wasn't so important. I save up my money in college for my Sinar F in the 80's and I still have and use it. Like other photographers that follow the trend, I don't particular appreciate the feature to it's fullest these days.

 

[JackRosa]

Thanks Drew

It can be a nice feature for tabletop studio photography where you might need to tilt the entire camera downward and have the luxury of working on a consistent focal plane. By way of distinction, many architectural shots use the camera leveled, where yaw is not an issue. In
portrait photography, strong movements tend to be uncommon. And then in landscape photography, the intersection of planes is often too
complex to simply use some on-camera formula like this (unless you're on the Plains, if you'll excuse a pun). I've worked for years with yaw-free
Sinars, and now prefer to use the earlier non-yaw-free Sinar Norma for my monorail needs. And neither of my folding field cameras have
asymmetric tilts. It's not a feature I ever seemed to use anyway, when I did have it.

Thanks Drew for this insight.

 

[JackRosa]

Drew is right. In the days when table top commercial photographer did for example catalog work, asymmetrical swings and tilts sped up setting up the swings and tilts. Especially during the 80's when everything had to be sharp. When the pictorialism made a bit of a comeback with the bokeh crazy, it wasn't so important. I save up my money in college for my Sinar F in the 80's and I still have and use it. Like other photographers that follow the trend, I don't particular appreciate the feature to it's fullest these days.

Thank you Maine . . . for this post.

 

[pdeeh]

I only "play" at LF, but this thread has been a mine of information to me, and the pdf by Ebony that Mr. Howers linked is an absolute gem of clear exposition

 

[JackRosa]

Glad Thread Has Been Benficial

I only "play" at LF, but this thread has been a mine of information to me, and the pdf by Ebony that Mr. Howers linked is an absolute gem of clear exposition

Paul: I am confident I speak on behalf of all my fellow APUGers . . . we are glad you have found this thread to be informative and beneficial to you.

 

[Jim Noel]

Well to site just one instance, with the use of cross front you can photograph a subject off to one side, without showing what may be directly in front of it.

I can do that without asymmetric movements.

 

[DREW WILEY]

There's a client in here almost every day who got rich in studio photography, but now mostly develops commercial properties (meaning in a
remodel not film developer sense). But at nite he still goes back to the studio (he's a workaholic), with a kitchen on premises, and does almost exclusively food photography for publication, truly on a production basis. It's all tabletop shots with digital backs on Sinar P cameras. His efficiency is based on those yaw-free asymmetric controls, which he knows instinctively by now. He'd never buy a camera without them, or probably own anything other than a Sinar. By contrast, I do almost all my own large format photography in the field, or at least of architecture, and don't think I've paid the least attention to the yaw-free features of my Sinars in the last thirty years.

 

[jamespierce]

Having gone from a very nice Arca Swiss 8x10 to an Ebony with asymmetric movements I can honestly say it's changed my life. It is just so much faster to setup and focus without going back and forwards. The fact that you can nail the focus first time leads to much less back and forwards checking etc. It makes me sad that my 4x5 doesn't have asymmetric movements :-(

 

[JackRosa]

Having gone from a very nice Arca Swiss 8x10 to an Ebony with asymmetric movements I can honestly say it's changed my life. It is just so much faster to setup and focus without going back and forwards. The fact that you can nail the focus first time leads to much less back and forwards checking etc. It makes me sad that my 4x5 doesn't have asymmetric movements :-(

James: what kind of wood does your Ebony 8x10 (I assume SV810U) have?. . . . Ebony? Mahogany?

Is most of your work studio/table-top, or landscapes?