Are you conceited?

[Alan Edward Klein]

FYI the classic “things could be worse, so pull yourself up by the bootstraps” advice is not helpful.

That wasn't my advice. I'm sorry I wasn't clear. My advice was when you run into a wall and can't seem to make any more headway, maybe it's time to stop banging your head against it and go out and help another person who has a problem. That takes your mind off your own issues and gives you an opportunity to feel that you do have a lot of value which might help you from beating yourself over the head.

 

[ChristopherCoy]

That wasn't my advice. I'm sorry I wasn't clear. My advice was when you run into a wall and can't seem to make any more headway, maybe it's time to stop banging your head against it and go out and help another person who has a problem. That takes your mind off your own issues and gives you an opportunity to feel that you do have a lot of value which might help you from beating yourself over the head.

That's pretty much the gist of every 12 step meeting ever created. By helping others, you help yourself. Now I understand what you were trying to say in your last post.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

That's pretty much the gist of every 12 step meeting ever created. By helping others, you help yourself. Now I understand what you were trying to say in your last post.

Wow. By helping you, I'm feeling better already.

 

[Vaughn]

I don’t think the desire to leave a mark is really the motivation, or at least the primary motivation for many/most great creative/intellectual minds (music, art, science). Not necessarily parents either - sometimes yes if they are particularly narcissistic and delusional but mostly they are just standard selfish. They have children because they want children.

I agree that it is not universal -- but the world is also filled by parents, artists and mass-murders that are primarily ego-driven in their activities, including parents such as some of the helicopter-type parents who link their self-worth (ego) with the success of their kids. It can also be why they want kids...little mes to control...but control issues, while ego-linked, are a different topic.

 

[TheFlyingCamera]

The way I look at it is that why would I do it at all if I wasn't going to put the very best possible effort into it, even if in the end my legal heir takes all my stuff and throws it in a bonfire? I have aspirations to success as an artist, so if I ever attain it, the stuff left over will actually have value to the people who look at it and keep it.

 

[Vaughn]

Exactly, FC. If I am going to give or sell a photograph to someone, it will be the best I can do as an artist and craftsman...to satisfy my ego and ethics. Since I do not know the fate of a print when I make it (beyond perhaps the trashcan or made into a card to send to a friend), I do my best with every print.

 

[Sirius Glass]

The way I look at it is that why would I do it at all if I wasn't going to put the very best possible effort into it, even if in the end my legal heir takes all my stuff and throws it in a bonfire? I have aspirations to success as an artist, so if I ever attain it, the stuff left over will actually have value to the people who look at it and keep it.

Exactly, FC. If I am going to give or sell a photograph to someone, it will be the best I can do as an artist and craftsman...to satisfy my ego and ethics. Since I do not know the fate of a print when I make it (beyond perhaps the trashcan or made into a card to send to a friend), I do my best with every print.

I agree my ego is as good as your ego!

 

[removed account4]

Exactly, FC. If I am going to give or sell a photograph to someone, it will be the best I can do as an artist and craftsman...to satisfy my ego and ethics. Since I do not know the fate of a print when I make it (beyond perhaps the trashcan or made into a card to send to a friend), I do my best with every print.

sorry for the tangent chris


the fate of the print. ..
I sometimes watch "strangeinheritance" on the boobtube when I am super bored and speaking of the fate of the print. ...
some lady who worked at picture book from the hey day of those photo magazines, .. she would regularly fish through the trash
and pull out original prints made by the who's who of The Who's who ...
when her kids were cleaning out the closet and attic they found boxes of original prints ( and they all looked beautifully made )
the lawyers that were consulted said that the children could do whatever they wanted with them because somehow through elfin magic
ergo. when the mum took them out of the trash can she owned the copyright ..

 

[Sirius Glass]

sorry for the tangent chris


the fate of the print. ..
I sometimes watch "strangeinheritance" on the boobtube when I am super bored and speaking of the fate of the print. ...
some lady who worked at picture book from the hey day of those photo magazines, .. she would regularly fish through the trash
and pull out original prints made by the who's who of The Who's who ...
when her kids were cleaning out the closet and attic they found boxes of original prints ( and they all looked beautifully made )
the lawyers that were consulted said that the children could do whatever they wanted with them because somehow through elfin magic
ergo. when the mum took them out of the trash can she owned the copyright ..

Elton John's mother fished one of his early music pieces out of the trash and it became a big hit.

 

[Pieter12]

sorry for the tangent chris


the fate of the print. ..
I sometimes watch "strangeinheritance" on the boobtube when I am super bored and speaking of the fate of the print. ...
some lady who worked at picture book from the hey day of those photo magazines, .. she would regularly fish through the trash
and pull out original prints made by the who's who of The Who's who ...
when her kids were cleaning out the closet and attic they found boxes of original prints ( and they all looked beautifully made )
the lawyers that were consulted said that the children could do whatever they wanted with them because somehow through elfin magic
ergo. when the mum took them out of the trash can she owned the copyright ..

I doubt very much she owned the copyright, but she most probably owned the print and could sell it. Copyright does not apply to print sales, only reproduction. Look at the brouhaha over Vivian Maier's work. I would also question the quality of the prints, since photographers and labs would usually produce prints for magazines that were specifically made to be reproduced and usually flatter than an ideal display print.

 

[Michael Firstlight]

I find it ridiculous anyone strives to be remembered by anyone other than their loved ones. When you die you'll be little more than a leaf on ancestry.com. OK, so let's assume you do brilliant work - how long would your legacy last? Do you think Ansel Adams is enjoying his immortal legacy right now? Just a few thoughts. I say enjoy while you are living - the dead don't suffer nor do they likely have egos.

MFL

 

[Vaughn]

sorry for the tangent chris
the fate of the print. ..
....

Probably RC reproduction prints -- if properly made, probably slightly different contrast from the originals to match the repro-process. Many businesses have strict rules about fishing things out of the trash...otherwise valuable items just tend to accidentally fall into the trash.

AA -- it would be kinda of nice to know one has been respected and has contributed to one's field on one's way out, took chances, had fun, loved, and all that sort of thing. If I were to believe in heaven and hell, I would imagine that a person probably makes their own as they check out.

I have friends without kids, but have a large varied collection of photographs, along with their own images from 40+ years of photography. They have connected to their old university (both have masters from there) and their collection will be going to the university. As teachers themselves, they enjoy the thought that their years of work will be a teaching tool for the university.

I am in the collection. Prints of mine will be somewhere 'permanently' (what is permanent besides change?) so who knows who will look at them and when. Neat to know that a future student might just want to know what carbon prints can actually look like and there are a couple to look at.

 

[Brendan Quirk]

I try to make my photos to the best of my ability. That includes making prints that last. Whether they have any value to anyone beyond me is not mine to decide.

If you are going to the trouble to make a print, you might as well not cut corners. You might be sorry later. This is not to say you can not build ephemeral qualities into your work, just do it well.

 

[Brendan Quirk]

Of course you are someone.
You just might not be SOMEONE!
In some ways, this relates to some of your comments about Magnum, on another thread.
You don't have to be Adams, or Avedon, or Mapplethorpe or Arbus to have photographs that are interesting or incredibly good or even flawed but really worth sharing.
Have you never heard a musical artist who wasn't perfect, or groundbreaking, but still entertaining and eminently worth listening to?
And have you never looked at someone's vacation/birthday party/zoo visit photos and just enjoyed them and the people who shared them?
Perfection and groundbreaking work might very well be within your capabilities. But a really good photo of a dog (or a 6 foot alligator) is really worth sharing.

You don't have alligators in your backyard in British Columbia, do you? My wife did when she was young, but that was in New Orleans...

 

[Brendan Quirk]

I find it ridiculous anyone strives to be remembered by anyone other than their loved ones. When you die you'll be little more than a leaf on ancestry.com. OK, so let's assume you do brilliant work - how long would your legacy last? Do you think Ansel Adams is enjoying his immortal legacy right now? Just a few thoughts. I say enjoy while you are living - the dead don't suffer nor do they likely have egos.

MFL

You will be perpetuated, for lack of a better word, by those you touched, whether related or not. My stepdaughter repeats sayings, jokes, inflections she got from me that I got from my grandfather and great uncle. She never met them, and is not biologically related. Her daughters are now doing the same. We live on, in small ways anyway, longer than we think, and in ways we do not anticipate.

PS. Some of these sayings come from my great-great-grandfather, arrived (to the USA) from Germany in 1848!

 

[MattKing]

You don't have alligators in your backyard in British Columbia, do you? My wife did when she was young, but that was in New Orleans...

Not in my backyard, but do bears count?

 

[ChristopherCoy]

Not in my backyard, but do bears count?

Not if their names are Mark, Steve, or Kevin.

 

[KenS]

One of the things that I often struggle with is the feeling of being conceited, vain, or narcissistic when it comes to my art. It's usually felt most when I'm looking at materials or equipment. I mean, who am I, and why do I think any of my art is good enough to last 50 years, so why should I be concerned with the cost of something based on archivability? And more importantly, why would I care whether my art is around in 50 years or more since artwork is rarely appreciated when an artist is living anyway. To me, and regarding myself only, it feels like caring whether my art is around in 50 years or more makes me a narcissus.

I'm not quite sure where I want to go with this, but I'm wondering what everyone else's take on things are. Is this something that all artists feel? Or have felt at one time or another?

"In response"...

Being now 'well and truly retired' after many years in the employ of a Federal Government Agriculture Research Center I now make photographs for "ME' rather than for clients. It is the means by which I now 'stay out of the rocking chair and 'away' from the usual and (mostly) somewhat boring day-time television programming....and stagnating.
Due to my limited pension income, I can't afford the cost of 'Commercial' B/W paper and find the 'archaic print processes (a lot more time consuming and 'work' but somehow much more 'satisfying'.

Ken

Ken

 

[marcmarc]

Well, for me personally I don't dwell on such thoughts because ultimately how our work is received is out of our hands and therefore should be out of our head too. Some people will like our work and may even want to purchase some of it. Other people may not want our work if we paid them to take it. It's all good, we just need to make work that satisfies us. End of story. On a quick side note, speaking of conceit one thing that I've noticed over the years is that as a general rule, the worse a photographer is, the more they overestimate the merit of their work and the more conceited they are. I've noticed this on social media and how they conduct themselves as well as personal acquaintances I know who simply cannot accept anyone who doesn't think their work is of the highest order. I've even left photography groups on Facebook because of some of the blowhards who couldn't take constructive criticism.

 

[tballphoto]

Well, for me personally I don't dwell on such thoughts because ultimately how our work is received is out of our hands and therefore should be out of our head too. Some people will like our work and may even want to purchase some of it. Other people may not want our work if we paid them to take it. It's all good, we just need to make work that satisfies us. End of story. On a quick side note, speaking of conceit one thing that I've noticed over the years is that as a general rule, the worse a photographer is, the more they overestimate the merit of their work and the more conceited they are. I've noticed this on social media and how they conduct themselves as well as personal acquaintances I know who simply cannot accept anyone who doesn't think their work is of the highest order. I've even left photography groups on Facebook because of some of the blowhards who couldn't take constructive criticism.

On counterpoint, we live in a world where everyone is a super special super star no matter what they do. Hell, even in 6th grade we already had the chicago school system ultra liberal "everyone is more special then you are" material pushed on us.

Hence we have millions of "photographers" on instagram with a few hundred photos of their lunch.

 

[jvo]

if you're doing art wouldn't you have to be? isn't it a matter of degrees? along with many other emotions?

 

[mohmad khatab]

أنا معتوه كبير
كيف أكون مغرور.؟

 

[removed account4]

I doubt very much she owned the copyright, but she most probably owned the print and could sell it. Copyright does not apply to print sales, only reproduction. Look at the brouhaha over Vivian Maier's work. I would also question the quality of the prints, since photographers and labs would usually produce prints for magazines that were specifically made to be reproduced and usually flatter than an ideal display print.

Probably RC reproduction prints -- if properly made, probably slightly different contrast from the originals to match the repro-process. Many businesses have strict rules about fishing things out of the trash...otherwise valuable items just tend to accidentally fall into the trash.

===
Christopher:
the heck with photography, meme's is where its at !
I came to the realization the last few days that if the family hired some teenager to turn the prints into memes they'd be worth even more!
you know like Bernie S bundled up having dinner in a hopper painting, or lunch on the Ibeam, or in a ch33rch and Ch0ng still
the ca$h you outside person ... ( dr fill gurl ). just sold her 15seconds of fame as a meme gonna be even more immortal than she already is !