Are We Really Stuck With Ilford MGFB? Where Are the Magic Papers of the Past?

[JMB]

JMB I'm nowhere near as optimistic as you. Great... go ahead and support companies that make graded papers. That is a short list. I thought it was great when Michael Smith bought all the Azo he could...made deals w Kodak..& later developed Lodima paper. But that ship has sailed.
Ilford & Foma (sometimes) are what is available in Canada. With 50 sheets of 20x24" FB Ilford Warmtone coming to my door at over $1100 Cdn.... I'm not looking to support the even more diminishing returns of graded paper. I just want to keep printing

I guess that I am not entirely sure what you mean by resisting support of "the even more diminishing returns of graded paper." And I won't make you cry by telling you what I paid for 20 x 24 inch Slavich Bromportait and Unibrom. But it does seem to me that your own experience with Ilford should inspire you to look for and support alternatives to it rather than supporting it. ********

MODERATOR NOTE: Politically tinged discussions are prohibited under Photrio rules. Content deleted accordingly.

 

[GregY]

I guess that I am not entirely sure what you mean by resisting support of "the even more diminishing returns of graded paper." And I won't make you cry by telling you what I paid for 20 x 24 inch Slavich Bromportait and Unibrom. But it does seem to me that your own experience with Ilford should inspire you to look for and support alternatives to it rather than supporting it. ***********

******I could very well order Slavich from Russia....but you know why I won't. The only question i ask you is when did you buy your 20x24 paper? I've got lots of Oriental, Forte, Azo boxes with shockingly low price tags on them.
Currently all premium films (Kodak /Ilford) and enlarging paper (Ilford/Foma) are priced a lot more than they were just a few years ago.
The bottom line is i have no interest in an unavailable niche paper (regardless of where it's made). I dislike having to change & test the next greatest paper that's gone in a year or five.... Been through that with Brilliant & Forte....

 

[Chromium VI]

Did you actually buy from Sordalab? Because I see some hard-to-find chemicals on their site, but their Sales Terms state:

(we do not accept orders from private persons)
Maybe it's a posture and they will actually deliver?

There are hard-to-find chemicals at https://keten.com.pl/ (including... potassium dichromate) but I've so far not ordered from them.

Sorry, I wasn't very clear. They sell to individuals, except chemicals (I only discovered very recently, after posting here). My Sordalab chems where sourced from "Silaba" (my local re-seler, for small purchases is cheaper) and they sell to individuals (I bought them 500g of Pot. Dichromate for ~40€, and they just send it in the mail for only 5€ (as they do for conc. sulfuric acid, and the "fuming stuff"). Here in Lisbon you can buy dichromate at the art store (OTC, no questions asked) but it gets more expensive.
Image: my art store's catalog of "interesting things"

 

[JMB]

******I could very well order Slavich from Russia....but you know why I won't. The only question i ask you is when did you buy your 20x24 paper? I've got lots of Oriental, Forte, Azo boxes with shockingly low price tags on them.
Currently all premium films (Kodak /Ilford) and enlarging paper (Ilford/Foma) are priced a lot more than they were just a few years ago.
The bottom line is i have no interest in an unavailable niche paper (regardless of where it's made). I dislike having to change & test the next greatest paper that's gone in a year or five.... Been through that with Brilliant & Forte....

Greg: No. I do not know why you won't order it. In any case, I bought the 20 x 24 paper about 5 years ago. And at the time it was a very small fraction of what Ilford was charging for 20 x 24 multi-grade. I think that we have covered this pretty well. Just let me emphsize in closing that my primary point is that the situation with llford is extremely unhealthy for photographers and photography. It's a very bad idea to build such dependence on a single provider. Such docile dependency simply creates de facto exactly what laws against monopoly and price fixing aim to prevent. The truly healthiest response to Ilford's price gouging is to vigorously seek-out and support (even build) alternatives even if it requires a little time and special efforts. It's a mistake to believe that we support photography in the long run by supporting Ilford. We support photography in the long run by doing whatever is in our power to support and increase competition. If we are lazy and complacent in this endeavor (if we "just want to print") we will --well --pay the price --in terms of money, product diversity, and quality.

 

[GregY]

No. I do not know why you won't order it. In any case, I bought the 20 x 24 paper about 5 years ago. And at the time it was a very small fraction of what Ilford was charging for 20 x 24 multi-grade. I think that we have covered this pretty well. Just let me emphsize in closing that my primary point is that the situation with llford is extremely unhealthy for photographers and photography. It's a very bad idea to build such dependence on a single provider. Such docile dependency simply creates de facto exactly what laws against monopoly and price fixing aim to prevent. The truly healthiest response to Ilford's price gouging is to vigorously seek-out and support (even build) alternatives even if it requires a little time and special efforts. It's a mistake to believe that we support photography in the long run by supporting Ilford. We support photography in the long run by doing whatever is in our power to support and increase competition. If we are lazy and complacent in this endeavor we will --well --pay the price --in terms of money, product diversity, and quality.

There are those of us who happily support Ilford & Kodak ....yes film is at risk too.
This conversation can easily go off the rails. But i'd suggest that at the moment you aren't supporting any manufacturer of paper....you're living off 5 yr old stock.

 

[Craig]

JMB: I'm curious why you think there is room in the marketplace for another maker of paper as big as Ilford/Harman?

Consider that film sales are approximately 3% of the volume that was sold in 1999, who is going to buy all this paper made by alternative companies?

There is a reason that Forte paper no longer exists, Kodak no longer makes B&W paper, Fuji no longer makes either B&W or colour paper, and Ilford no longer makes graded paper. The demand simply isn't there to economically produce graded FB paper anymore at Tier 1 quality standards.

There is only one quality player in the market because that's all the demand there is. Fracturing the market and creating duplication only makes each companies survival more perilous.

I looked up Harman (Ilford) last full financial statements. Their net profit was 2.5% of gross income. The shareholders could get a greater return on their investment to simply shut it down, liquidate the assets and park their money in bonds and have a secure return. Ilford is hardly "price gouging" with that narrow a return - and this was before the price of silver took off. I fully expect they will be losing money in the next financial statement.

Here is a sobering thought: based on how much silver Ilford buys, the silver price difference between 2024 and 2025 was greater than their net profit in 2024. So far, the silver price in 2026 is double the average price in 2025.

 

[JMB]

There are those of us who happily support Ilford & Kodak ....yes film is at risk too.
This conversation can easily go off the rails. But i'd suggest that at the moment you aren't supporting any manufacturer of paper....you're living off 5 yr old stock.

Well all right. I guess I can't go home yet. Jeez Greg, your observation sort of falls into this category of analysis: "What have you done for me lately?" Slavich has been available for a very long time as an alternative to Ilford, but by and large folks ignored it. (There are disciples out there however). If thousands of others had done exactly what I did (i.e. look carefully for Ilford alternatives) folks might be enjoying better conditions and more respect from Ilford now. And to be sure, I certainly encouraged and rewarded Slavich's commitment to the aesthetics of graded paper with two large orders of it. But Lord, I can't place a lifetime order everyday (although I should be glad to have as many lifetimes). I made the purchases as wise insurance against exactly what has happened now because I saw Ilford's hegemony growing to an unhealthy degree and because Slavich was a surprisingly superior paper available at a surprisingly lower cost. And just to be clear I can still get it today. So I have completely broken at least my own dependence on Ilford forever and I have a source for preferred graded paper that Ilford refuses to produce. Ilford simply took advantage of its perceived market position to tell a lot of photographers in love with the graded paper aesthetic to kiss-off. Rest assured that as my half-life approaches, I will place another large order. So I guess I just do not understand your criticism at all.

 

[Craig]

And just to be clear I can still get it today.

Where?

 

[MattKing]

Fuji no longer makes either B&W or colour paper,

Fuji is still making colour paper, but the other observations about all those who have left the market are accurate.

 

[MattKing]

As I understand it, Harman were forced to discontinue their production of Ilford branded fixed grade papers because the dwindling market made it impossible for them to make the minimum practical quantity without having large amounts of the product produced go unsold prior to its use before date.
If the minimum amount of, e.g. skim milk, your dairy can practically make is more than you can sell before its best before date, you are going to end up losing a bunch of money on a large amount of unsold, spoiled milk.
The user base is effectively tiny right now. And that is even with the greatly downsized production machinery that Harman rescued and put into operation as part of the machinations that came from the receivership of the old Ilford.

 

[thinkbrown]

The user base is effectively tiny right now. And that is even with the greatly downsized production machinery that Harman rescued and put into operation as part of the machinations that came from the receivership of the old Ilford.

I kind of expect we're gonna reach a point where buying photo paper is similar to the Ilford ULF program. Place your order once a year and they cut to order.

 

[Augustus Caesar]

As I understand it, Harman were forced to discontinue their production of Ilford branded fixed grade papers because the dwindling market made it impossible for them to make the minimum practical quantity without having large amounts of the product produced go unsold prior to its use before date.
If the minimum amount of, e.g. skim milk, your dairy can practically make is more than you can sell before its best before date, you are going to end up losing a bunch of money on a large amount of unsold, spoiled milk.
The user base is effectively tiny right now. And that is even with the greatly downsized production machinery that Harman rescued and put into operation as part of the machinations that came from the receivership of the old Ilford.

They could try advertising.

 

[MattKing]

They could try advertising.

Their advertising dollars are spent in places where there is a return - including being a primary supporter of Photrio.

 

[chuckroast]

Their advertising dollars are spent in places where there is a return - including being a primary supporter of Photrio.

Exactly. All technologies go through approximately the same U-shaped curve. They are expensive at first (early innovation low volume), get cheap (commodity high volume), and then get expensive again (niche low volume).

We are in that last phase. As long as there is demand will to meet the price asked there will be product.

 

[MattKing]

We are in that last phase. As long as there is demand will to meet the price asked there will be product.

And as long as there aren't other, intervening events.
Does anyone know what the remaining term is on Harman's lease of the manufacturing premises they rescued from the receivership? I haven't heard anything recently about the earlier pressures to re-develop the land as housing.

 

[Chromium VI]

If the paper doesn't turn all funky in 20yrs, for me, the rest is just taste. I kinda like Ilford MGRC deluxe pearl, but not much of a 'fan' on the FB stuff, I like FB stuff from Foma, but their RC is a little bit 'weak' for me (althogh i like it for more "pictorial" work). Slavich paper is very nice, I never used it, but I know someone who uses it (for bromoil) and absolutely says wonders. For those who may want to dig around a bit, Agfa still (afak) makes an RC multigrade paper both in glossy and semi-mate called Rapitone M1-M2 https://www.agfa.com/specialty-products/solutions/aerial-photography/rapitone/. I already contacted the representative of Agfa in Portugal about availability, waiting for their answer. If someone knows something about these papers as well as Avitone dupe film say something, I love agfa paper, and need more copy film.

 

[Craig]

Fuji is still making colour paper, but the other observations about all those who have left the market are accurate.

I had thought Fuji had ceased and "Fuji" paper was rebranded Kodak, but I must have been getting that confused with C41 film.

 

[Craig]

And as long as there aren't other, intervening events.
Does anyone know what the remaining term is on Harman's lease of the manufacturing premises they rescued from the receivership? I haven't heard anything recently about the earlier pressures to re-develop the land as housing.

In the financials under "Principal Risks and Uncertainties", nothing is mentioned about property or facility risks, so I assume there isn't anything on the immediate horizon.

 

[JMB]

JMB: I'm curious why you think there is room in the marketplace for another maker of paper as big as Ilford/Harman?

Consider that film sales are approximately 3% of the volume that was sold in 1999, who is going to buy all this paper made by alternative companies?

There is a reason that Forte paper no longer exists, Kodak no longer makes B&W paper, Fuji no longer makes either B&W or colour paper, and Ilford no longer makes graded paper. The demand simply isn't there to economically produce graded FB paper anymore at Tier 1 quality standards.

Their is only one quality player in the market because that's all the demand there is. Fracturing the market and creating duplication only makes each companies survival more perilous.

I looked up Harman (Ilford) last full financial statements. Their net profit was 2.5% of gross income. The shareholders could get a greater return on their investment to simply shut it down, liquidate the assets and park their money in bonds and have a secure return. Ilford is hardly "price gouging" with that narrow a return - and this was before the price of silver took off. I fully expect they will be losing money in the next financial statement.

Here is a sobering thought: based on how much silver Ilford buys, the silver price difference between 2024 and 2025 was greater than their net profit in 2024. So far, the silver price in 2026 is double the average price in 2025.

Craig: Sorry. Didn't see your note.

Q: JMB: I'm curious why you think there is room in the marketplace for another maker of paper as big as Ilford/Harman?

A: I don't exactly understand the force of this question. Surely you don't mean that Ilford is somehow entitled to the entire market share. This is exactly the economic harm that anti-trust laws are designed to prevent. Ilford must compete. And its in our best interest in the long run to make it compete. Besides, are we not simply foolish to fail to purchase a superior product from a competitor at a much lower price because we for some strange reason wish to protect or apologize for Ilford? There are several competing paper and film providers right now. Slavich is one of them. Its been around for generations. Not sure really, but its probably even older than Ilford, It's a very solid alternative to Ilford. We don't owe Ilford a living.

Q: Who is going to buy all this paper made by alternative companies?
A: Anyone who wants a superior product at a lower price. In any case, I cannot even get what I want from Ilford at any price.

Q: There is a reason that Forte paper no longer exists and Kodak no longer makes B&W paper, Fuji no longer makes either B&W or colour paper, and Ilford no longer makes graded paper. The demand simply isn't there to economically produce graded FB paper anymore at Tier 1 quality standards.
A: No doubt there are reasons. But your analysis is way too quick. In any case, I get "Tier I quality graded FB papers" (double weight) from Slavich.

Q: (In essence) Ilford isn't price gouging because its profits are 2.5 % of its gross income according to financial statements of some sorts.
A: Well this claim requires access to data, which neither of us have in order to fully evaluate and an independent company audit and a full understanding of company structure and its relation to other entities. To be sure, the 2.5 figure tells me nothing out of the above context. In any case, I see no reason to mince words. If you are more comfortable with excessive price, or just alarmingly uncompetitive with a marvelous alternative, I won't insist otherwise. But it does seem strange to me that you would so easily dismiss price gouging.

Q: Price of silver explains it all.
A: Hardly. Slavich uses silver, too.

 

[Yezishu]

If I recall correctly, Slavich comes out of the Russian industrial complex at Pereslavl Factory. Focusing strictly on the material itself—USSR and Russian flims and papers never quite matched the quality of Western giants like Ilford or Kodak, even at their peak. Their low price point today is a result of cheap labor and QC trade-offs. Locally, the equivalent for me is China mainland's Lucky Film—affordable, sure, but less reliable than Foma, to say nothing of the giants. It’s great that cheap Lucky Film exists, but I really wouldn't want to be stuck in a situation where it's the only option available.

 

[Craig]

Why are you somehow thinking that Ilford doesn't compete in the market? Did Kodak decide to cease making paper because they felt Ilford "deserved" to make the profits instead of them?

This whole idea that Ilford has somehow been granted a worldwide monopoly and is exploiting everyone is so silly it's not worth continuing anymore. Good luck with your unavailable Russian paper, I'll happily keep using the products Harman which that I can buy at my local camera store 10 min away.