Are We Really Stuck With Ilford MGFB? Where Are the Magic Papers of the Past?

[GregY]

I'll add...if we don't buy Ilford & Foma paper.... there will be no Ilford or Foma paper.....

 

[DREW WILEY]

Seems people who shoot themselves in one foot, are the type most apt to shoot themselves in the other foot too.

 

[GregY]

Seems people who shoot themselves in one foot, are the type most apt to shoot themselves in the other foot too.

Say what ?? Can you say that in plain language Drew?

 

[DREW WILEY]

People get mad for some reason or another at one brand of film or paper, so boycott it, and then inevitably sooner or later get mad at another brand too. There aren't many choices left anymore; we only have two feet ourselves.

 

[JMB]

Seems people who shoot themselves in one foot, are the type most apt to shoot themselves in the other foot too.

Well, these last two posts are very defeatist, passive, and I think naive ways of looking at things --and hardly the proper capitalist spirit! Lord, what seller would not like a niche of passive, desperate buyers who will pay any price for even what turns out to be an inferior product. (I am referring to Ilford, not Foma. The Foma graded paper is rather nice). It certainly seems to me that those who continued purchasing Ilford papers when Ilford's prices began to escalate without looking for alternatives certainly shot themselves not in one foot, nor two feet, but in the head when Ilford realized that it could get away with price gouging. Mine was the right response: buy from another manufacturer. And of course I don't see at all how I shot myself in either foot. I paid a fraction of Ilford's price for a superior paper, and I am still printing on graded paper because I purchased a near lifetime supply. And what's more, Slavich still makes its excellent graded papers. Can't say that for Ilford. So one can buy Ilford at a ridiculous price, and guess what, still "not get Ilford" if you prize graded paper. So I do not see how supporting a price gouging manufacturer would have helped me at all. By turning to Slavich instead I helped to ensure the availability of a fine graded paper at a marvelous price! Get your nerve up; that's how capitalism is supposed to work. The right response to Ilford now is "keep it."

 

[stevenje]

People get mad for some reason or another at one brand of film or paper, so boycott it, and then inevitably sooner or later get mad at another brand too. There aren't many choices left anymore; we only have two feet ourselves.

Personally I am glad we have any choices at all. Imagine if we had no choices. Then what? Be thankful at some point and just go with the flow.

 

[Craig]

Before you accuse Ilford of "price gouging", you might want to look at their financial statements. They are a barely profitable company, and lost a fair bit of money during covid.

I'm glad Slavich works for you, but I have zero interest in graded paper. VC opens up far more possibilities to produce the image I want than graded can. The other thing to keep in mind is that Ilford QC is top notch, among the best in the world. Ilford works for me, I'm happy to buy it.

And like Greg above, I have zero intent to support a regime that suppresses human rights and criminalizes LGBTQ peoples existence for example.

 

[GregY]

Well, these last two posts are very defeatist, passive, and I think naive ways of looking at things --and hardly the proper capitalist spirit! Lord, what seller would not like a niche of passive, desperate buyers who will pay any price for even what turns out to be an inferior product. (I am referring to Ilford, not Foma. The Foma graded paper is rather nice). It certainly seems to me that those who continued purchasing Ilford papers when Ilford's prices began to escalate without looking for alternatives certainly shot themselves not in one foot, nor two feet, but in the head when Ilford realized that it could get away with price gouging. Mine was the right response: buy from another manufacturer. And of course I don't see at all how I shot myself in either foot. I paid a fraction of Ilford's price for a superior paper, and I am still printing on graded paper because I purchased a near lifetime supply. And what's more, Slavich still makes its excellent graded papers. Can't say that for Ilford. So one can buy Ilford at a ridiculous price, and guess what, still "not get Ilford" if you prize graded paper. So I do not see how supporting a price gouging manufacturer would have helped me at all. By turning to Slavich instead I helped to ensure the availability of a fine graded paper at a marvelous price! Get your nerve up; that's how capitalism is supposed to work. The right response to Ilford now is "keep it."

I think you're on your own here JMB....

 

[JMB]

I think you're on your own here JMB....

Yes. But then so was Van Gogh. Crowd thinking is almost never the way to go.

Well, as I said in the beginning, I am bewildered (and I still am bewildered) why people don't print on Slavich at least instead of Ilford. It's a much more expressive and much less expensive paper. (Remember the topic of this thread is alternatives to Ilford). And this was another way of saying that I am bewildered and still bewildered by those who embrace VC papers. Show me a guy who prints on VC papers, and I will show you a guy who .... well, never mind. As far as I can tell there is a real enough edge with graded papers (acutance, sharpness, and subtle tonality). But sure, its a matter of taste, but discriminating taste, I can't help but think.

 

[Craig]

(Remember the topic of this thread is alternatives to Ilford).

No, the topic was rose coloured glasses and how everything was much better in the past and how much better the discontinued products of the past were.

 

[MattKing]

Yes. But then so was Van Gogh. Crowd thinking is almost never the way to go.

Well, as I said in the beginning, I am bewildered (and I still am bewildered) why people don't print on Slavich. And this was another way of saying that I am bewildered and still bewildered by those who embrace VC papers. Show me a guy who prints on VC papers, and I will show you a guy who .... well, never mind. As far as I can tell there is a real enough edge with graded papers (acutance, sharpness, and subtle tonality). But sure, its a matter of taste, but discriminating taste, I can't help but think.

This reflects the opinion of a lot of the old guard, who have never figured out how to get from the VC papers the results that the VC/Multigrade papers are capable of.
I've been using VC papers since the relatively terrible ones of the 1970s. Plus a fair variety of fixed grade papers, although mostly I was using them early.
Mostly I'm even more of a heretic - I use RC papers as well.
It is tough to communicate the potential of these mostly more modern alternatives without face to face contact between people, but a few people here have seen my presentation prints in real life. @Andrew O'Neill is one example.
There are also a fairly large number of people who have seen my contributions to many earlier rounds of the Postcard Exchange.
Any talented and experienced printer can make modern Ilford papers "sing". While I'm sure that the same sorts of talents and experience can bring into being good or great results from the Slavich papers, given a chance to learn them well, I don't think anyone is prevented from obtaining stellar results from the Ilford offerings.
I would like to see the variety again that we once enjoyed. There are advantages that flow from the variety - anyone remember Ektalure?

 

[GregY]

Yes. But then so was Van Gogh. Crowd thinking is almost never the way to go.

Well, as I said in the beginning, I am bewildered (and I still am bewildered) why people don't print on Slavich at least instead of Ilford. It's a much more expressive and much less expensive paper. (Remember the topic of this thread is alternatives to Ilford). And this was another way of saying that I am bewildered and still bewildered by those who embrace VC papers. Show me a guy who prints on VC papers, and I will show you a guy who .... well, never mind. As far as I can tell there is a real enough edge with graded papers (acutance, sharpness, and subtle tonality). But sure, its a matter of taste, but discriminating taste, I can't help but think.

JMB You only have it because you stockpiled. It is not an available paper.
As for "Show me a guy who prints on VC papers" ........You could have said that 30 yrs ago.
I still have a little Azo, a little Fortezo..... Galerie is long gone....
We have what we have.....and more important to me is what can i continue to get?.....

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Yes, I have seen Matt's prints... on RC, in fact I have one... and they are what made me give RC papers a rethink. Before that, I wouldn't touch them with a barge pole.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Go into any serious art supply store and you find multiple lines of oil colors and water color pigments, even brush selections. People have their reasons for buying cheaper or more expensive brands, along with plenty of strong personal opinions over such things. That's why there are so many choices to begin with.

Well, I've used all kinds of black and white papers, both graded and VC. Some I liked more than others; but one either adapts to what is available or gives up. And Ilford is still making some very fine paper. MGWT is just as good a paper as any graded I've ever used - It's just different and of course, warm. I have reasons for liking a number of classic papers from the past; but that's just it - they are past. So gotta move on.

Yeah, prices for paper have gone way up and it's getting tough, but so have all kinds of other things, like museum board itself. I've just rebuilt my old truck for less the tax on a new one. Film itself has gone up like crazy, so I might shoot it less, but that doesn't mean I have to stop.

Going around complaining about "price gouging" when all kinds of other factors are probably in play won't change anything, except to limit your options. One brand goes up, another inevitably will. And I'm talking about the here and now, not about what a good deal we have stashed away from the past. I'm running with some of that myself, as far as film is concerned. But paper I've had to re-buy at current rates, so will have to be more careful about which images I choose to print going forward.

 

[JMB]

This reflects the opinion of a lot of the old guard, who have never figured out how to get from the VC papers the results that the VC/Multigrade papers are capable of.
I've been using VC papers since the relatively terrible ones of the 1970s. Plus a fair variety of fixed grade papers, although mostly I was using them early.
Mostly I'm even more of a heretic - I use RC papers as well.
It is tough to communicate the potential of these mostly more modern alternatives without face to face contact between people, but a few people here have seen my presentation prints in real life. @Andrew O'Neill is one example.
There are also a fairly large number of people who have seen my contributions to many earlier rounds of the Postcard Exchange.
Any talented and experienced printer can make modern Ilford papers "sing". While I'm sure that the same sorts of talents and experience can bring into being good or great results from the Slavich papers, given a chance to learn them well, I don't think anyone is prevented from obtaining stellar results from the Ilford offerings.
I would like to see the variety again that we once enjoyed. There are advantages that flow from the variety - anyone remember Ektalure?

Well let me make clear that I am relatively new guard at least in photography. In any case, I have indeed seen some rather spectacular printing technique displayed on VC paper, and have spent a fair amount time with VC printers (that's why I know that the inside joke about them which I did not express is probably true). But I have to say that the spectacle that VC printing invites is more its weakness than its strength. For example, a highlight is "striking" to me when it is subtle and sublime --not when its spectacular. This of course leads to a long but important discussion about the philosophy of photography and art more generally. (Incidentally, what you wrote at the outset at least touches on a truth. Young printers indeed tend to embrace VC paper with little thought for graded paper (acutance, tonal scale, sharpness, subtlety), and they are also much more embedded in contemporary culture and this personality also shows up in their VC work). But this is not the focus of this thread. For the most part the focus here is not really about VC vs graded papers either. The focus is alternatives to Ilford (which of course is essentially VC now). It just turns out that Slavich has always been a much overlooked and a very viable alternative to Ilford. In fact, in my own experience Slavich Bromportrait contains many of the qualities that some missed in silver chloride papers. It's a premium paper --more than simply an alternative to Ilford, which in my view is actually a lower quality paper.

 

[chuckroast]

This reflects the opinion of a lot of the old guard, who have never figured out how to get from the VC papers the results that the VC/Multigrade papers are capable of.
I've been using VC papers since the relatively terrible ones of the 1970s. Plus a fair variety of fixed grade papers, although mostly I was using them early.
Mostly I'm even more of a heretic - I use RC papers as well.
It is tough to communicate the potential of these mostly more modern alternatives without face to face contact between people, but a few people here have seen my presentation prints in real life. @Andrew O'Neill is one example.
There are also a fairly large number of people who have seen my contributions to many earlier rounds of the Postcard Exchange.
Any talented and experienced printer can make modern Ilford papers "sing". While I'm sure that the same sorts of talents and experience can bring into being good or great results from the Slavich papers, given

1. I switched to split VC printing years ago and never looked back. The only thing that could every get me to go back would be paper on par with the original Brilliant paper and some of the Kodak classics like Velox and Kodabromide.
   
   
2. The bad reputation of VC comes, I think, from the first generation papers being quite trash, among them Polycontrast and the first generation Ilford VC stuff. But things have changed a lot since then. I print almost exclusively on Fomabrom 111 VCFB and I love the stuff.
   
   
3. You are indeed a heretic for printing on plastic but it may soon be all we have at our disposal. I keep waiting for a Chinese vendor like eTone to enter the fiber paper arena.
   
   
4. When I last used Ilford paper, I gave up because it stubbornly refused selenium toning even a low dilutions. This may well have changed in the intervening 15 or so years.
   
   
5. I remember Ektalure, Opal, Brovira, Oriental, and other phenomenal papers of the past. But one is required to cooperate with the inevitable if one wants to progress.
   
   
6. I wonder if there is a crowdsourcing model that could get the current coating companies to make some of the great papers of the past much like Ilford's ULF program for film.

 

[chuckroast]

Go into any serious art supply store and you find multiple lines of oil colors and water color pigments, even brush selections. People have their reasons for buying cheaper or more expensive brands, along with plenty of strong personal opinions over such things. That's why there are so many choices to begin with.

Well, I've used all kinds of black and white papers, both graded and VC. Some I liked more than others; but one either adapts to what is available or gives up. And Ilford is still making some very fine paper. MGWT is just as good a paper as any graded I've ever used - It's just different and of course, warm. I have reasons for liking a number of classic papers from the past; but that's just it - they are past. So gotta move on.

Yeah, prices for paper have gone way up and it's getting tough, but so have all kinds of other things, like museum board itself. I've just rebuilt my old truck for less the tax on a new one. Film itself has gone up like crazy, so I might shoot it less, but that doesn't mean I have to stop.

Going around complaining about "price gouging" when all kinds of other factors are probably in play won't change anything, except to limit your options. One brand goes up, another inevitably will. And I'm talking about the here and now, not about what a good deal we have stashed away from the past. I'm running with some of that myself, as far as film is concerned. But paper I've had to re-buy at current rates, so will have to be more careful about which images I choose to print going forward.

Absent overt fraud, there is no such thing as "price gouging". Price is a measure of scarcity and a signal into a market where resources should be directed. If Ilford prices go too high, there is like a Chinese coating factory that would jump in to make some of that stellar money off high prices.

 

[Craig]

It just turns out that Slavich has always been a much overlooked and a very viable alternative to Ilford.

How is an unavailable paper an alternative? Why not ask for Kodak Elite, it's just as easy to get.

 

[JMB]

JMB You only have it because you stockpiled. It is not an available paper.
As for "Show me a guy who prints on VC papers" ........You could have said that 30 yrs ago.
I still have a little Azo, a little Fortezo..... Galerie is long gone....
We have what we have.....and more important to me is what can i continue to get?.....

Greg, the comment "show me a guy who prints on VC papers" is part of an unfinished joke in my post: "show me a guy who prints on VC papers and I will show you a guy who ....." Discretion got the better of me in not finishing the joke. It might be tricky to get Slavich at the moment from conventional sources --but that's all politics. I think that the situation will change in due course. It's most critical that the Slavich graded papers are in fact still produced. Not so with Ilford. Despite all that loyal purchasing at escalating prices --the product still disappeared! This unfortunate fact underscores the fallacy that it is critical to support Ilford (no matter what it charges) so that we will have it. For me, its critical to support companies that offer graded papers ----especially when they are offered at a fraction of the price of Ilford! As long as Slavich makes the paper, we can get it. As long as Ilford refuses to make it, we cannot get it.

 

[GregY]

Greg, the comment "show me a guy who prints on VC papers" is part of an unfinished joke in my post: "show me a guy who prints on VC papers and I will show you a guy who ....." Discretion got the better of me in not finishing the joke. It might be tricky to get Slavich at the moment from conventional sources --but that's all politics. I think that the situation will change in due course. It's most critical that the Slavich graded papers are in fact still produced. Not so with Ilford. Despite all that loyal purchasing at escalating prices --the product still disappeared! This unfortunate fact underscores the fallacy that it is critical to support Ilford (no matter what it charges) so that we will have it. For me, its critical to support companies that offer graded papers ----especially when they are offered at a fraction of the price of Ilford! As long as Slavich makes the paper, we can get it. As long as Ilford refuses to make it, we cannot get it.

JMB I'm nowhere near as optimistic as you. Great... go ahead and support companies that make graded papers. That is a short list. I thought it was great when Michael Smith bought all the Azo he could...made deals w Kodak..& later developed Lodima paper. But that ship has sailed.
Ilford & Foma (sometimes) are what is available in Canada. With 50 sheets of 20x24" FB Ilford Warmtone coming to my door at over $1100 Cdn.... I'm not looking to support the even more diminishing returns of graded paper. I just want to keep printing

 

[Patrick Robert James]

After Fotochemika went out of business I switched to Foma. I am always after the blackest blacks I can get. For years my prints kind of bothered me. One day I was looking through old prints and I remarked at how black a certain print was. I decided to measure. In the end, Ilford delivered a blacker black than Foma 111. I switched to Ilford even though it hurt. JMBs post is a bit....

This whole thread is a bit I don't know. If you can see differences you can. I know there is a lot of I guess you could call it folklore out there but I've been printing since the early 90s and I can tell the differences. I have a friend that buys all kinds of old paper when he can find it. Some of the old papers are quite a bit different, especially seeing them today comparatively. He always tries to get me to use old papers but I have been down that road too many times. I just want to be able to get as close to what I want without jumping through hoops so Ilford it is.

Do I like some of the old papers more than I like Ilford? Of course. Forte Polywarmtone and regular VC, Fotochemika Varycon, Emaks, Agfa 118, Ektalure, etc. I wish we could go back but it is what it is. I wish Adox would finally make more of their paper but I doubt that is ever going to happen. That was good stuff....

I am guessing before I push up daisies we are going to be making our own paper, if we can afford the silver that is...

 

[GregY]

How is an unavailable paper an alternative? Why not ask for Kodak Elite, it's just as easy to get.

Thanks Craig....

 

[DREW WILEY]

Oh price gouging truly occurs. Just look at auto parts marketing. Extreme markups are present in a number of product categories. But film and darkroom paper is such a small niche these days that it's probably a juggling act for them just to keep a step ahead of the wolf.
But there are mitigating factors, like the sheer unpredictability of added tariffs and other run amuck international scenarios at the moment. Unpredictability itself drives scarcity, due to the risk of of distributors buying at the wrong time, or in the wrong quantity. That affects and complicates all kinds of supply chains, including those Kodak and Ilford themselves rely on.

 

[chuckroast]

This whole thread has convinced me to buy a small freezer and stuff as much paper and film as I can afford to buy into it and replenish it as I use it up.

 

[chuckroast]

Oh price gouging truly occurs. Just look at auto parts marketing. Extreme markups are present in a number of product categories.

That's not price gouging. That's supply and demand. Price is a measure of scarcity relative to demand, nothing more or less. The only thing that changes that is fraud, which is a whole different kettle of fish.