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Are We Really Stuck With Ilford MGFB? Where Are the Magic Papers of the Past?

That's why all the larger sizes of Brilliant were packed 25 sheet boxes instead,
like current Foma or, if and when available, Bergger paper.
 
Melvin J Bramley said:
Currently printing with a pack of 25 Ilford Ilfospeed grade 2; with visually good results!
I still have Galerie and 10 year old Ilford Multigrade fiber base to play with.
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I just made a few prints on some Ilford Ilfospeed grade 4 and it works as good now as it did when I got it two days after the last dinosaur died. Really good stuff!
 
Wait a minute... I'm a dinosaur and still alive. So is everyone else who finds a dark cloth mandatory.
 
DREW WILEY said:
Wait a minute... I'm a dinosaur and still alive. So is everyone else who finds a dark cloth mandatory.
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I'm in the same age bracket so I'm a little dinosauracy too. A dark cloth and a tripod with 5 legs...........three for the camera and two for me. Seriously, I don't find many older papers I have on hand handle age very well. It's a pleasant surprise when you dig through a stack of old battered boxes and find some paper that is still worth using. Brings a smile to your face, but the sad part is that when the box goes empty you're screwed.
 
My Ward mail order catalog from 1951 list Kodak plus X at 3.84 for a 36 exp roll of 35mm, that would be 48.99 US in today's money. On the other hand a 100 sheets of Kodabromide 8X10 double weight was 6.84 or 81.91 which is less than a 100 sheets of most modern papers.
 
Paul Howell said:
On the other hand a 100 sheets of Kodabromide 8X10 double weight was 6.84 or 81.91 which is less than a 100 sheets of most modern papers
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If you relate it to average incomes (which is a more realistic model for these sorts of products) you end up at USD 262.00.
 
My first "average wage" was fifty cents a day pushing a non-power mower over an old lady's lawn.
 
Daniel Stuefer said:
Slavich papers can (seemingly) still be bought, but they only seem to have normal graded paper, and it's not exactly cheap either...
Well, I say "papers" as if there are several, but it's really only Unibrom in a few different sizes
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Slavich manufactured Unibrom and Bromportrait as an fb stock and Beryozka as the Unibrom emulsion on the rc base.
All three are out of production for a couple of years since they cannot purchase the German made base material.
 
Here's a reality check: could you find enough people to sell 600x 100 sheet boxes of fixed grade 8x10 (or equivalent for 16x20 etc) to within 12-18 months? Bear in mind that those volumes would be per grade.
 
Lachlan Young said:
Here's a reality check: could you find enough people to sell 600x 100 sheet boxes of fixed grade 8x10 (or equivalent for 16x20 etc) to within 12-18 months? Bear in mind that those volumes would be per grade.
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Sure! We have more than enough folks printing 30-40 16X20 prints everyday on Photrio, just on this forum alone. To be honest, it's not likely things are going to get any better for us small batch of wet printers. I made a prediction to my uncle when digital really started kicking in that the Chinese would see the opportunity to fill the gap on films and papers that are dropped by companies like Kodak. Well, Kodak dropped and the Chinese never really picked up . Good thing I didn't bet my uncle.
 

They were not 'magic', If fact, quite the opposite and quite primitive, compared to the best of todays papers, The difference being those who printed on them will have been doing so for eons not knowing anything different so they KNEW how to get the best out of them. One thing that has improved is the newer developers. With older formulations any extended developing time and you ran the risk if fogging the paper and this almost unheard of today. There also is the cost. Almost every paper was fibre based either single of doubleweight. Look at the prices of fibre paper today.

The way around fogging were many and included painting on neat developer to deepen shadow or bring out highlights that were too dense on the negative. Alternatively to restrict development in the shadows to retain detail they would remove the print mid development and rinse that area it with plain water, That is as well as dodging and burning selected areas.

About the only paper I miss was the long gone Kodak Bromesko chloro-bromide, warm-tone developed in Kodak D163 developer mixed from a powder but with a short active life of 2-4 hours now that was something special! It was before the days of multigrade but with fixed grades 1, 2, and 3. It would cost an absolute fortune today.

Kodak D163 was also a film developer and if you wanted to accentuate grain, use D163. Sadly it is no longer available.
 
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An interesting observation related to this topic. After too many years in a grey cubicle I decided to hang up a bunch of prints with magnets and clips. Most were printed in the past 5 years on new materials, but some are either new prints on old (but still good) paper, or old prints going back maybe 20-30 years.

My overall favorite? Foma 111. The surface has changed a little between batches, so consistency could be an issue. However, with one batch the blacks are more matte than the whites, causing a slight difference in reflectivity and an almost etched effect. Perhaps this is a “defect” but images with fine, contrasting details really leap out. Previous batches were uniformly glossy, much like MGFB.

Second: Tie between Ilford Galerie #3 and Polywarmtone. Different, but both are (were…) very nice.

Third: Ilford Multigrade Classic RC glossy (fun trick here, about 45 seconds in the microwave while slightly damp will improve D-max and gloss just like an infrared dryer. Archival? Don’t care, it’s RC already…) Many are selenium toned to get rid of the mild green/brown. Nice range of tones. Costs about as much as Foma 111 though, but faster to process.

Honorable mention: Agfa Brovira 119 #2. Textured surface cold tone paper that has a certain charm. Not sure yet what to do with 400 sheets of it, but it is different, and good.

Don’t care for: Ilford RC Pearl surface. I know I’m going against popular opinion here but it just doesn’t… something.

Don’t like at all: Fomaspeed 312 RC. Looks ok on its own, but next to anything else is both cold and dull. Maybe I would like the glossy finish in the microwave?

Reality check: Lab scans of Kodak Pro Image 100 printed on the office printer. Nobody here cares, except they are pictures of my awesome dog, therefore much prefered to my artsy black and white whatevers.
 
On FB papers, my preference is Fomabrom Variant 111, It's a non-supercoated paper, so very fragile emulsion, I really like the look of it after ferrotyping on a press, just looks wonderful. I used Foma RC in the past, I like the gradation of tones but for me it laks the density.
 
Chromium VI said:
On FB papers, my preference is Fomabrom Variant 111, It's a non-supercoated paper, so very fragile emulsion, I really like the look of it after ferrotyping on a press, just looks wonderful.
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Yes, ferrotyping this paper makes it look beautiful. I have a small example hanging up.


snusmumriken said:
The dog is a lab, then?
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Well, 10% black lab. He’s invisible when he sneaks into my makeshift darkroom, but he wants to help.
 
A trick question, Lachlan? The current demand for any grade of paper is close
to zero, since graded paper is now almost nonexistent.
 
“Almost nonexistent” isn’t true. Foma alone has five graded papers currently available (Fomabrom, Fomaspeed, Retrobrom, Fomatone Chamois and Fomapastel), and Adox makes Lupex. The demand may be niche, but graded paper hasn’t disappeared.
 

All but one from a single company......
 
GregY said:
All but one from a single company......
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With just three coaters left worldwide, a “single company” is reality, not evidence.
 
Maybe, too bad it is invisible
 
GregY said:
All but one from a single company......
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The only graded paper I ever really cared about was the original Zone VI Brilliant Graded. I never saw a paper, before or since, graded or VC that had the tooth and, well, brilliance that the Zone VI stuff did. Sadly, it did not make the transition of Guilleminot to Bergger and just quietly withered away. One company indeed.

Similarly, I miss Velox, Kodabromide, Ektalure, and Opal ... but I'm ancient ...
 
BMbikerider said:
Kodak D163
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The formula has long been published. It looks a lot like Kodak Ltd had dismantled Agfa/ Ansco 130, worked what the glycin was really doing and replaced with more hydroquinone. G.I.P. Levenson of Kodak Ltd was one of the top developer formulation researchers (to the point of writing the chapter on it in the SPSE handbook).

As it is, I do have a box of Bromesko postcard paper to run through lith, which it should work with.

Chromium VI said:
It's a non-supercoated paper, so very fragile emulsion
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Not really. It is supercoated. However, going from some Agfa patents, it seems that getting optimal ferrotyping requires the gelatin to not be as heavily/ thoroughly hardened as people might assume. Higher levels of hardening might make air dried seem a bit glossier, but might make it less optimal for glazing.



Even Foma seems to have quietly dropped a grade of Fomabrom, and looks like they're trying to keep it in production by putting it on different base tints. That said, I think most modern graded papers (probably at least since the arrival of Ilfobrom nearly 60 years ago) are probably closer in manufacture to how Multigrade papers are made than people realise, but from two rather than three emulsions and with the blend uniformly sensitised.
 

The Guillemot paper was magic....i was starting my printing journey and when i go back and look at some early prints.... that's a paper i wish i could have back.
 
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