Anyone know what's worng with my film?

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CrazyCockatoo

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I've got strange dots and lines on my film. In the last photo i don't know why there is no image at all. These picture are all taken at the same day, and lens cap removed. Because of light condition i take with F4 and F5.6. Developed a few hours after shot.
Here's the chems i use:
Dev: ilfosol 3 1+14
stop: ilfostop 1+19
fixer: Ilford Rapid Fixer 1+4
Final rinse is Ilfotol.
film is ilford Hp5+ ISO 400
camera Canon AE-1P
Hope someone could solve this mystery for me, A lot of Thanks.
 

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Don_ih

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There is a thread here where someone discovered a problem with some rolls of HP5+ - the felt trap where the film comes out leaks light. If you had your film out in the sunshine for a few seconds, and it was one of those rolls, that might be the problem. He contacted Ilford and got replacement rolls.

This:
1726138517374.png

looks like a development problem - the film touching itself so didn't get developed and fixed at that spot.
 

koraks

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There is a thread here where someone discovered a problem with some rolls of HP5+ - the felt trap where the film comes out leaks light.

This may indeed be part of the problem. However, it's also possible that there was a light leak due to e.g. the center column of the development tank being left out, or an in-camera light leak around the film back.

looks like a development problem - the film touching itself so didn't get developed and fixed at that spot.

Yes, I agree.
 

Don_ih

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This may indeed be part of the problem.

I really only thought of it because the pattern is very similar. But the frame numbers indicate that the problem is bad at the end of the film. So a problem with the developing tank could be the cause, and it's actually quite unlikely that the film cassette is the problem.
 

koraks

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Hmm, good points @Don_ih . I agree the pattern looks very similar to the problem rolls/cassettes we've seen before, but you'd indeed expect that particular problem to pop up mainly/only at the start of the roll. The sharp projections of the sprocket holes make me suspect the camera (film back) more than the development tank.

@CrazyCockatoo what kind of camera did you use for this roll? And what kind of development tank?
 
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CrazyCockatoo

CrazyCockatoo

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Hmm, good points @Don_ih . I agree the pattern looks very similar to the problem rolls/cassettes we've seen before, but you'd indeed expect that particular problem to pop up mainly/only at the start of the roll. The sharp projections of the sprocket holes make me suspect the camera (film back) more than the development tank.

@CrazyCockatoo what kind of camera did you use for this roll? And what kind of development tank?

canon ae-1p and a two roll paterson tank
 
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CrazyCockatoo

CrazyCockatoo

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I really only thought of it because the pattern is very similar. But the frame numbers indicate that the problem is bad at the end of the film. So a problem with the developing tank could be the cause, and it's actually quite unlikely that the film cassette is the problem.

u mean a light leak in the Paterson tank?
 
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CrazyCockatoo

CrazyCockatoo

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Yes. Like Koraks said, you sometimes see fogging like that when someone neglects to put in the centre.

shouldn't be the tank cause it work fine on other films, also the camera have taken a few rolls after i purchased it. None of them have problems like this. That's why i feel strange
 

Don_ih

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A hinge leak in the camera tends not to look like that. A momentary opening of the camera back before rewinding the film could do it, though - but one or two shots would be completely black.

How did you agitate the film during the developing stage?

Also, is there any chance there was fixer on the reels or tank when you started?
 

Alex Benjamin

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How did you agitate the film during the developing stage?

I was wondering if there was any agitation at all. Last image looks like bromide drag.
 

Sirius Glass

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I agree, the artifacts appear to be caused by a defective light trap.
 

Alex Benjamin

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No, bromide drag cannot create additional density on an unexposed leader. This is fogging of some kind.

Noted. But why is the fog following the sprocket holes? How is that possible?
 

Nicholas Lindan

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Dark bands at the sprocket hole positions is traditionally a sign of over-agitation. The holes create turbulence when the tank is inverted.

The length and severity of the bands leads me to think the tank was agitated by inversion and there was only one reel in a two reel tank.
 

DeletedAcct1

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No, bromide drag cannot create additional density on an unexposed leader.

Why not?
Some questions for the OP:
1) what kind of Paterson tank do you have? 1 reel? 2 reels?
2) How much developer did you used in ml?
3) Did you inverted the tank or only agitate by twisting motion?
 
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Don_ih

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Unfortunately, I doubt there will be an answer unless it happens to @CrazyCockatoo again and he happens to notice something he didn't notice this time.

I asked about fixer on the reels because, coupled with low agitation, I think that can cause silvering-out on what would normally be bromide drag lines. But I may be wrong about that.
 

koraks

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I asked about fixer on the reels because, coupled with low agitation, I think that can cause silvering-out on what would normally be bromide drag lines.

I doubt it; the bromide drag lines would only occur in areas that have density (resulting from exposure) to begin with, since bromide drag is minus density due to bromide inhibition of the development process (hence the term). So that rules out bromide drag and if your fixer hypothesis relies on it, that would be ruled out as well.
Instant silvering out due to fixer contamination (sans the bromide drag component) I find a little hard to believe especially in this clearly defined pattern and without any mention of a silvery sheen on the film. Fixer contamination I'd expect to show up as one of the following:
1: Slight brown discoloration of the entire film due to sulfur compounds indiscriminately forming silver sulfide.
2: Slightly reduced overall gamma - which would go unnoticed unless the contamination is really bad. It's basically the same as adding a little fixer to the first developer in a reversal process (and that doesn't result in silvering out either).
3: Distinct ammonia / fishy smell during development - which may easily go unnoticed especially by someone who hasn't processed a whole lot of film.
4: Most probably: overall dichroic fog with no distinct pattern to it.
Given the pattern we see here, I don't really see how fixer would be responsible for it. Yes, I get the argument of fixer sticking to reels and that way only being 'active' locally...but with this particular pattern, and such 'good' definition to the pattern? Nah.
The over-agitation hypothesis also sounds far-fetched; why doesn't everyone running a Jobo at continuous rotation run into this problem? And even if there's over-agitation, how come it shows up as (lots of!) density in supposedly unexposed areas of the film? The excess agitation somehow sped up a development process that...doesn't happen in the first place? And how about those places where the pattern is fairly sharply cut off? I've over-agitated film lots of time; it's easy to run into the problem with e.g. x-ray film. What you get is excess gamma in a pattern that's consistent with flow patterns and things like tank/tray geometry. What it doesn't create, is sharply defined density in unexposed areas of the film.

While fogging to light - well, makes perfect sense. Light shines through sprocket holes and falls onto emulsion underneath. ]The only question is where/when it exactly happened. Now that is a question that's going to help OP towards a solution. Hence my surprise and slight frustration about the red herrings that are served out for reasons that are unclear to me. Maybe it's somehow not good enough to stick to the most likely hypothesis and work that out?

Well, that's the way I see it. And now I'll really try and not argue the point any further. I apologize for having done so to begin with and will leave anyone to pursue whatever direction the see fit, regardless of how irrelevant I believe it is.
 

Alex Benjamin

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Hence my surprise and slight frustration about the red herrings that are served out for reasons that are unclear to me. Maybe it's somehow not good enough to stick to the most likely hypothesis and work that out?

Well, that's the way I see it. And now I'll really try and not argue the point any further. I apologize for having done so to begin with and will leave anyone to pursue whatever direction the see fit, regardless of how irrelevant I believe it is.

Someone offers a hypothesis, someone else with more knowledge or experience replies and says why the hypothesis is wrong. That's how a forum in which members have different levels of knowledge functions. Everybody learns, everybody benefits.

And by definition, a hypothesis is neither right or wrong. It's a statement that needs to be proven true or false. Don't see why, or how, it can be compared to a red herring.

Plus, you can't blame us for having been raised with Sherlock Holmes famous adage: "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." 🙂🤓
 

DeletedAcct1

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I've got strange dots and lines on my film. In the last photo i don't know why there is no image at all. These picture are all taken at the same day, and lens cap removed. Because of light condition i take with F4 and F5.6. Developed a few hours after shot.
Here's the chems i use:
Dev: ilfosol 3 1+14
stop: ilfostop 1+19
fixer: Ilford Rapid Fixer 1+4
Final rinse is Ilfotol.
film is ilford Hp5+ ISO 400
camera Canon AE-1P
Hope someone could solve this mystery for me, A lot of Thanks.

did you experienced troubles loading the film onto the reel or rewinding it in the camera?
I vote for the stress marks issue (notice the emulsion missing in the first image, between "ilford" and "hp5"), that's no light leaks.
It they were light leaks they wouldn't be that uniform.
Here's another similar case https://www.photo.net/forums/topic/184842-what-happened-to-this-film/
Look for jay_de_fehr answer.
 
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BrianShaw

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Dark bands at the sprocket hole positions is traditionally a sign of over-agitation. The holes create turbulence when the tank is inverted.

The length and severity of the bands leads me to think the tank was agitated by inversion and there was only one reel in a two reel tank.

Apparently this has been deemed a red herring, but I had the same (red) thought.
 

Nicholas Lindan

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It's a good puzzle. Good enough reason to stick around.

The agitation hypothesis requires the film to be exposed so there is something for the agitation to work on. The film does look like there is an overall fog, but I concede it doesn't look like it is at the level that would cause such a pronounced effect from agitation alone. The pattern of the stripes changes - in places it is two streaks of density that come from the sides of the sprocket holes. To me that points to a problem with developer flow. I am though, puzzled at the uniformity of the stripes - it would require laminar flow over the film in the vertical direction. That is why I thought of one reel sliding in the tank, falling through the developer, as the tank was inverted. Could the film have been agitated by the raising and lowering of a central lifting wire in a tall tank?

Why there is no evidence of over-agitation on Jobo processed film, well: there is chaotic random flow as the film drains and is plunged back into the developer with each revolution; the drum reverses giving some added chaos to the developer flow over the film; if there were a problem at the sprocket holes it would show up as horizontal streaks in the sprocket hole area.

The evidence for fogging comes from some frames having having hole-size black patches between the sprocket holes. This is pretty damning evidence that rolled up film was exposed to light. This is most often seen at the start of a roll where light has gotten in through the felt trap. However, the patches are showing up at frame #27. If the back of the camera had been opened up then this exposure pattern would happen on the film wrapped around the take-up spool. There would also be a big black patch on the film around frame #30.

If the film were fogged in camera by a light leak I can't see why the pattern would line up with the sprockets. Also there should be black vertical stripes where the camera wasn't advancing the film and there was more time for exposure to the leak. It could be that the rolled up undeveloped film was exposed to light before it was loaded on the real.

The idea of mechanical stress causing the problem is a good one. It would explain marks that are uniform across the film width and that line up with the sprocket holes.

It may there are multiple sources for these stripes - in a complex problem there is never just one cause. In my consulting career, when called in to solve a problem the client can't make heads or tails of, our going in assumption is there are two or more causes. In one case it was a pile up of 5 interacting causes. Multiple cause cases can't be solved by eliminating one cause at a time - problems add like noise, taking away 1/5 of the noise is such a small change that any effect will be, as it were, buried in the noise.

This may be a combination of fogging and agitation adding up to produce the effect. I would like to see how the problem 'evolves' over the course of the entire film. Any chance of getting a scan of the entire film loaded in one of those plastic pages?

The first step in solving a problem, though, is to have the ability to make the problem happen on command. If you were trying to create the effect shown on the film, how would you do it?
 
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