Anyone have experience with the Arca-Swiss Discovery?

[Adam D'Agosto]

Hi all,
I'm looking at a large format upgrade and I'm mostly leaning towards the Chominix F2. But, I'd also consider the Arca-Swiss Discovery.

Thing is, I probably won't do a lot of distance packing with a LF camera. I expect short distances will be the norm. Something like 100 yards from my car....

So long as I can get the Discovery into a backpack, it could be a good alternative.

Anyone have experience with the Discovery (or something very similar)?

Thoughts??

Thanks!
Adam

 

[Bob S]

Hi all,
I'm looking at a large format upgrade and I'm mostly leaning towards the Chominix F2. But, I'd also consider the Arca-Swiss Discovery.

Thing is, I probably won't do a lot of distance packing with a LF camera. I expect short distances will be the norm. Something like 100 yards from my car....

So long as I can get the Discovery into a backpack, it could be a good alternative.

Anyone have experience with the Discovery (or something very similar)?

Thoughts??

Thanks!
Adam

The LInhof Technikardan will easily fit any backpack. So will a Technika or a Wista.

 

[B.S.Kumar]

The older Arca cameras are quite light, as is a Toyo VX125. The older Toyo 45D is not unreasonably large.

Kumar

 

[Adam D'Agosto]

Ok but Im looking for Arca-Swiss Discovery users, not do much more alternatives. I've narrowed my search to the Chominix and pretty much ruled everything else out (except for the Discovery).

So curious if those who have used it can speak to my questions.

Many thanks!

 

[Neil Poulsen]

I'm addicted to Arca Swiss, and I've been a user for years.

I've not used a Discorvery, but practically speaking, they're not all that different from a Classic F. As for backpacking, it all depends on the type of rail system that you have. For example, if you get an "expandable" 30cm setup that includes two 15cm rails and a 30cm bracket, then your camera will backpack really well. You can move both the front and back standard onto one of the 15cm rails and easily stow it in a backpack. Then, put the 30cm bracket and the remaining 15cm rail beside it. See the following link. (By the way, you would never buy something like this new.)

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod...iss_043130_Monorail_Expanding_Telescopic.html

Another rail setup that would backpack well is the following.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod...044130_Monorail_30cm_Collapsible_Folding.html

In short, the longer your shortest rail, the more difficult an Arca Swiss can be to backpack. Of the above options, I prefer the first. It offers a longer, maximum extension. That said, the second option is sized well for a 6x9 Arca Swiss view camera, but not so well for 4x5.

 

[ruilourosa]

Arca Discovery is a very good camera, but i prefer to use shen hao or chamonix... lighter, easyer, simpler... cheaper (usually)

 

[Adam D'Agosto]

I'm addicted to Arca Swiss, and I've been a user for years.

I've not used a Discorvery, but practically speaking, they're not all that different from a Classic F. As for backpacking, it all depends on the type of rail system that you have. For example, if you get an "expandable" 30cm setup that includes two 15cm rails and a 30cm bracket, then your camera will backpack really well. You can move both the front and back standard onto one of the 15cm rails and easily stow it in a backpack. Then, put the 30cm bracket and the remaining 15cm rail beside it. See the following link. (By the way, you would never buy something like this new.)

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod...iss_043130_Monorail_Expanding_Telescopic.html

Another rail setup that would backpack well is the following.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod...044130_Monorail_30cm_Collapsible_Folding.html

In short, the longer your shortest rail, the more difficult an Arca Swiss can be to backpack. Of the above options, I prefer the first. It offers a longer, maximum extension. That said, the second option is sized well for a 6x9 Arca Swiss view camera, but not so well for 4x5.

Interesting. People have said the Arca will backpack well, but I can't find a single photo of an Arca packed down and placed into a backpack.

I get the feeling they can be packed down, but not generally done.

If you have a photo you can post that shows it well, please post that.

I also think the Chominix makes more sense, for me, but the Arca would check an awful lot of boxes!

Thx!!

 

[Oren Grad]

Adam, as originally marketed the Discovery was supplied as a kit with the non-collapsible 30cm rail but also a bag designed to fit the camera, though I don't know to what extent it was necessary to disassemble the camera to fit that bag. More generally you'd want the collapsible rail for maximum convenience in backpacking an Arca-Swiss camera.

Rod Klukas (http://rodklukas.com/) is the long-time US representative for Arca-Swiss - you might try asking him about optimal configuration for backpacking a Discovery.

 

[Adam D'Agosto]

My guess, based on the misspelling of ChAmonix, is OP is the same Adam from the LFPF Linhof/Chamonix thread.

I’ll offer the same advice. Get the Chamonix. Like Linhof, Arca makes wonderful cameras. However the fact OP has now added Arca monorails to the list reinforces what I said on LFPF - until you have more experience it is hard to know what you want/need.

Arcas are expensive new, and if you go the used route, it will be a similar situation to the used Linhof route. Although buying a used Arca will be somewhat less complicated than buying a used Linhof, you’re still dealing with somebody’s old stuff, and it will probably still be more expensive than getting a new Chamonix.

HOLY CRAP!!! THANK YOU FOR POINTING OUT MY MISS SPELLING OF Chamonix.

And yes you are correct about the Linhof/Chamonix thread being me.

Here's my line of thinking. Having used the Cambo monorail for a year, I have to say the monorail format is pretty cool. It's the maximum flexibility in terms of movements and reduced setup time. My Cambo is always set up, so it just pop it onto the tripod and I'm in business within seconds. Then, when I take it out, it's really the same, it's always set up. So the monorail rig is pretty cool. The problem as you know is that it's a monsters tank of a camera! So....if I could find a monorail that is backpackable, even though it wouldn't be as good as the Chamonix in terms of weight and size, it would be an acceptable compromise.

The reason I'd consider a metal camera is the fact that I would hopefully be able to put this new camera on my back and get on my mountain bike. There, I can ride into the park, set up, shoot, pack down, ride a bit, set up, shoot.....my concern there is that I'd have a better chance of breaking or damaging the camera because I'll do something stupid. The metal camera my fair better.

I really do agree with michael_r and the Chamonix is likely to be the best overall option. They other aspect is, I just need to get something and start shooting with it do I can figure it all out. To me, the Arca-Swiss Discovery with collapsing rail might/would/could be a good alternative to the Chamonix as a slightly lower cost.

Thank for you spell check and your advice.

Adam

 

[Bob S]

My guess, based on the misspelling of ChAmonix, is OP is the same Adam from the LFPF Linhof/Chamonix thread.

I’ll offer the same advice. Get the Chamonix. Like Linhof, Arca makes wonderful cameras. However the fact OP has now added Arca monorails to the list reinforces what I said on LFPF - until you have more experience it is hard to know what you want/need.

Arcas are expensive new, and if you go the used route, it will be a similar situation to the used Linhof route. Although buying a used Arca will be somewhat less complicated than buying a used Linhof, you’re still dealing with somebody’s old stuff, and it will probably still be more expensive than getting a new Chamonix.

How is buying a used Arca less complicated then a used LInhof?
There are the Technika, the Kardan and the TKs. Most use the same accessories.

 

[Bob S]

It just seems to me you need more knowledge regarding the Linhof line versus Arca. Not if you’re buying one of the most recent cameras, but older stuff. More models and/or evolution of models. Also, it is my impression (just my two cents based on reading forum posts over the years) that for some reason more Linhof owners have screwed around with their cameras. Someone buys an old Technika, and it turns out the ground glass is in the wrong place, and now they have to start with the shims etc.

I also think when it comes to more recent models from premium brands such as Linhof or Arca, buying used items that are in excellent shape (a TK 45S for example) will end up being more expensive than a new Chamonix, so I just think OP would be better off going that way since he doesn’t really seem to know what he wants/needs anyway.

Just my opinion, having been down this road.

Edit: Full disclosure, I currently use a Kardan RE (which I bought from HP Marketing ) and a Chamonix.

The shims for the LInhof are fully adjustable and are standard with the camera. People might lose them or they might fiddle with their placement screws but there is no way that they need adjustment unless someone fiddles with them.

 

[Neil Poulsen]

Here's my Arca Swiss both expanded and folded as I described above. My camera has a smaller front standard, but the rear standard is the same 171mm standard that comes both front and back on a Discovery. So, this gives you an idea of what a folded Discovery would look like.

Also, my bracket is smaller, which was customized from a 40cm bracket. But the two rails shown below are the same size as those on a 30cm expanding bracket.

As I indicated, the folded camera (2nd photo) fits easily into a backpack, and then one can put the bracket with remaining rail beside the folded camera, or somewhere else.

There's a certain appeal to a clamshell camera. But even with an interchangeable bag bellows, wide angle photography can be awkward, or impossible, depending on the focal length. Also, clamshell cameras have limited extension, depending on the model. Neither situation is the case with a rail camera.

 

[Neil Poulsen]

With some simple customization . . .

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/sinar-f-4x5-as-a-viable-field-camera.172997/

you can have a Sinar that's almost as compact as an Arca and just as versatile. But, it's a LOT less expensive. I usually use my Arca Swiss for medium format, and rather than take the time to convert it to the 4x5 shown above, I use the Sinar shown in this link. It's a very nice camera to use.

 

[Adam D'Agosto]

This is great, I appreciate all the ideas!!

One person mentioned that the OP (that's me) didn't know exactly what I wanted. That's not exactly true. I in fact know exactly what I want!!

1. I want the most flexibility in a camera (range of lens) from 75mm to 400mm (or as close to it). If that has to be sacrificed, then the long end would be first to go, so 75mm to 300mm.
2. I want the most flexibility in movements. Not because I need it all the time, but from time to time difference movements can be super helpful. I know this beyof experience using a monorail. The ability to use the front and rear standards almost interchangeablely is pretty nice.
3. I want the camera to fit into a "normal" camera backpack. The camera should be "quick" to set up and pack down.
4. It should be ridged but no necessary the most ridged, but quality ridged.

I would say, based on all the research, the Chamonix F2 is the closest to this requirement definition. I'm just looking for viable contenders that may be at a lower cost and sure there may be some sacrificed features. What I was expecty to learn (hoping more like) was camera and model "X" would be an alternative that costs less AND also has some advantages over the Chamonix F2.

I just really have not found that yet. The Arca-Swiss Discovery is just about as close as I can find.

Those are the requirements I want. Do I need all of them? Well, my position is simple. For each dollar I spend, I should be collecting features and capabilities with the camera. Given the price point of a new Chamonix F2 ($1400 tax/title/lisence), what camera out there can say, "pick me"? It can most definitely cost more!! If that higher cost adds features or capabilities. But if it doesn't, why spend the extra $$?

The nice thing is, I'm not emotionally connected to any brand. It's just a tool.

Got any more suggestions??

Love that Sinar F project. Very creative. Btw....I can get my Cambo monorail into a backpack. It works. And for $150 it does the job. Yeah it's a PITA to setup and pack down, but, it works!!

 

[Neil Poulsen]

The project Sinar can easily do 75mm-360mm, but getting up to 400mm without an intermediate standard is going to be a stretch. The longer 22 pleat, accordion style Sinar bellows might do it. But, it would put a strain on the bellows. With a bag bellows, the Sinar can easily and conveniently do 75mm.

Here's a review of the Chamonix, which apparently has range of 55mm to 395mm.

https://viewcameraaustralia.org/2018/01/08/review-chamonix-45f-1-4x5-camera-david-tatnall/

Two questions that I would have about this camera are, how rigid is the camera at 395mm? As a second question, how convenient is it to use a bag bellows at 75mm? Are the front and back standards going to bump into each other with any significant rise? (From looking at the images in the review, possibly not.)

Typically, one will need an extension that's a little longer than the longest focal length lens used. So the Chamonix extension of 395mm would be sufficient for a 360mm lens. But for a 400mm lens? Doubtful. If one really needs this focal length, one can get a telephoto 400mm lens like a Fiji, where the flange focal length is much less than the nominal focal length.

I've had a number of clamshell cameras like a Deardorff 4x5/5x7, Deardorff 8x10, Wista wood camera, a Wista SP, etc. Probably the most sturdy was the SP, being a metal camera. But even with a bag bellows, it was fidgety using a 75mm on that camera. The wood cameras all had stability/vibration problems at long focal lengths. Finally, I decided to stick with rail cameras.

Still, wood cameras can be quite beautiful to use. As long as they're not pushed to their extremes, they can be a good alternative.

 

[Bob S]

This is great, I appreciate all the ideas!!

One person mentioned that the OP (that's me) didn't know exactly what I wanted. That's not exactly true. I in fact know exactly what I want!!

1. I want the most flexibility in a camera (range of lens) from 75mm to 400mm (or as close to it). If that has to be sacrificed, then the long end would be first to go, so 75mm to 300mm.
2. I want the most flexibility in movements. Not because I need it all the time, but from time to time difference movements can be super helpful. I know this beyof experience using a monorail. The ability to use the front and rear standards almost interchangeablely is pretty nice.
3. I want the camera to fit into a "normal" camera backpack. The camera should be "quick" to set up and pack down.
4. It should be ridged but no necessary the most ridged, but quality ridged.

I would say, based on all the research, the Chamonix F2 is the closest to this requirement definition. I'm just looking for viable contenders that may be at a lower cost and sure there may be some sacrificed features. What I was expecty to learn (hoping more like) was camera and model "X" would be an alternative that costs less AND also has some advantages over the Chamonix F2.

I just really have not found that yet. The Arca-Swiss Discovery is just about as close as I can find.

Those are the requirements I want. Do I need all of them? Well, my position is simple. For each dollar I spend, I should be collecting features and capabilities with the camera. Given the price point of a new Chamonix F2 ($1400 tax/title/lisence), what camera out there can say, "pick me"? It can most definitely cost more!! If that higher cost adds features or capabilities. But if it doesn't, why spend the extra $$?

The nice thing is, I'm not emotionally connected to any brand. It's just a tool.

Got any more suggestions??

Love that Sinar F project. Very creative. Btw....I can get my Cambo monorail into a backpack. It works. And for $150 it does the job. Yeah it's a PITA to setup and pack down, but, it works!!

Then you obviously have not looked at the LInhof TK or TKS. http://linhof.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Technikardan_e.pdf

 

[Adam D'Agosto]

Exactly!! What I really want likely does not exist and that's totally fine. I expected that. What I'm looking for is the two or three next best things.
So far I've got the:

1. Chamonix F2
2. Arca-Swiss Discovery
3. A Sinar with some work

I think the 400mm is unreasonable, so let's just call it a solid 300mm performance.

I'm going to look at the Linhof ones suggested.

 

[Adam D'Agosto]

So I re-educated myself on the Linhof TK45S. Yeah no doubt it's a great option. The "s" version seems to go used for about an additional $1000 over the Chamonix and Discovery. The non-s model is about the same.

In terms of the simple value is that extra $1000, I don't quite see it. In fact, in reading about that camera, the pavk-down, setup time might not be all that great.

In this case, I would say I now have 4 viable options.

Pretty good. Thank you for the tip!! Now I just need to learn more about the difference between the s and non-s versions. From what I gather, there's some construction differences, but nothing crazy.

 

[Bob S]

So I re-educated myself on the Linhof TK45S. Yeah no doubt it's a great option. The "s" version seems to go used for about an additional $1000 over the Chamonix and Discovery. The non-s model is about the same.

In terms of the simple value is that extra $1000, I don't quite see it. In fact, in reading about that camera, the pavk-down, setup time might not be all that great.

In this case, I would say I now have 4 viable options.

Pretty good. Thank you for the tip!! Now I just need to learn more about the difference between the s and non-s versions. From what I gather, there's some construction differences, but nothing crazy.

Worked with both the S model and the non S older version. Opening and closing one is faster then reading this sentence. Once you learn how to operate it read the instruction manual. It’s easiest the fastest view camera to set up and take down.
The difference between the two models are:

the original version had a one piece L standard. The S has a 3 piece L standard. The front standard on the S is wider. The S has a zero dentent for the tilts otherwise they are identical.

 

[Adam D'Agosto]

Good to know. Thank you. Having zero detents on tilt is pretty academic and why it's excluded is bazaar to me. Great info!!

 

[DREW WILEY]

I've done a great amount of backpacking with both Sinar monorail cameras (original Norma and several flavors of F series), as well as with an Ebony wooden folder. Monorails are faster to set up and shoot, while many folders are more compact and lighter. Another advantage of monorails are that they are system cameras which can be reconfigured in different manners, including convenient rail extension lengthening.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Adam - detents can be an annoyance when you need just a tiny amount of tilt or swing, yet the detent almost forces you back into zero position if you try a tiny movement - and those tiny ones are sometimes important! I have cameras both with and without detents; and I had more important decisions when first purchasing than that particular feature.

 

[Bob S]

Well, again, that depends on how you prefer to work, typical subject matter etc. I really appreciate having zero detents. Other people couldn’t care less.

I have to agree with Bob regarding the TK being easy and quick to open/close. You’ll occasionally/rarely come across complaints from people who simply can’t or refuse to follow simple instructions.

Especially as there is a pictograph on the focus knob to aid the user.

 

[Adam D'Agosto]

That's fair. My Cambo has detents and sometimes it can be a problem. So maybe I was a bit harsh.

It is however nice if the camera has center markings so you know where "middle" is.

 

[Bob S]

That's fair. My Cambo has detents and sometimes it can be a problem. So maybe I was a bit harsh.

It is however nice if the camera has center markings so you know where "middle" is.

With or without the center dent feature the original TK is very easy and accurate method to secure zero detente.