Anyone ever make Lippmann plates?

R Shaffer · Apr 21, 2010

Photo Engineer said:
I would be happy to help in any way, but I am not sure what I can do for you as I have never worked with Lippmann emulsions.

PE

Thanks,

The emulsion is down the road, but I have attached an excerpt from
"The True Colour of Photography by Hans Bjelkhagen & Darran PM Green"
that has the process & formula for the emulsion if your curious.

holmburgers · Apr 21, 2010

That makes sense, thanks for the input. Is formalin easily obtained for this purpose?

Here is a directory on Colin Kaminski's website (same guy who set up the Lippmann forum at holographyforum.org) http://www.designerinlight.com/lippmann/ It doesn't appear to be linked to at his website actually, so it's kind of a "backdoor" thing. Most articles aren't in English unfortunately.

His website, also has lots of chemistry formulas. I'm just posting this stuff in hopes of consolidating all sources to this thread.

Photo Engineer · Apr 21, 2010

Formalin is hard to get in the US, unless you are an undertaker. It has been labeled as a carcinogen. You can substitute glutaraldehyd, succinaldehyd or glyoxal. Some of these are available from the Formulary.

PE

R Shaffer · Apr 21, 2010

holmburgers said:
Hey, thanks for everybody's input. Especially the holo links.

What factors go into successful developing, that is, how can you avoid shrinkage? (no jokes necessary.... )

Is it temperature dependent, agitation, chemical, etc.? Lemme guess, all of the above! I wonder what the success rate is.

So here's a question... if you used mercury, would the shrinkage problem be minimized? Why must one use mercury? I guess it's because the mirror has to actually be in contact with the emulsion? So just sandwiching a mirror wouldn't work I suppose.

For what it's worth, making emulsions is way out of my league at the moment; I'll stick with the limitations of the available plates.

Lastly, could someone explain this sentence.... "The Slavich [PFG-03c] emulsion requires pre-development hardening in a formaldehyde solution." Is this the fogging that R Shaffer was referring to??

BTW: Lippmann plates can be projected, which to me seems like one of the most practical ways to display. It requires an aphengescope type projector (basically an opaque projector as far as I can tell). Here is a book link that describes it.... http://books.google.com/books?id=pq...=0CAYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=aphengescope&f=false

I'm certainly far from clear on the physics involved, but
Your recording in the film emulsion an interference pattern that occurs when light is reflected, the wave going out messes up the wave coming in. And if you have an emulsion with a fine enough grain, the interference pattern can be recorded. When you reverse the light reflection in the exposed & developed plate, it alters the light wave lengths to those you recorded and you see color . The paper you sent me has a much better description of what is happening.

The mercury acts as a mirror and so does the air-film with black space. Since the object, if you will, that we are recording is millionths of a millimeter, the gap between the mirror & emulsion would need to be incredibly small. The mercury mirror does move the location in the emulsion where the pattern is recorded further in. I don't know if this makes it easier to record or less sensitive to shrinkage & expansion.

The fogging I was referring to is due to the very small particle size in the emulsion. It can fog with-out light, but I don't know if it is a chemical fogging or something else. It can be cured.

holmburgers · Apr 21, 2010

What you say about the mirror seems true. I guess mercury is the only "liquid" mirror that could be in perfect contact with the emulsion.

As for formalin, sounds like it's time to start going door-to-door to mortuaries...

Photo Engineer · Apr 21, 2010

holmburgers said:
As for formalin, sounds like it's time to start going door-to-door to mortuaries...

I've listed appropriate substitutes above that are more easily obtained.

PE

holmburgers · Apr 21, 2010

I know, thank you. It's not as funny though, as the idea of going around to mortuaries.

Photo Engineer · Apr 21, 2010

holmburgers said:
I know, thank you. It's not as funny though, as the idea of going around to mortuaries.

Ummm, what can I say. Kinda made me ill thinking of it!

PE

holmburgers · Apr 23, 2010

PE, I know there are some Lippmann's in Rochester, are you familiar with any elsewhere in the U.S.?

Sorry I made you ill

Photo Engineer · Apr 23, 2010

holmburgers said:
PE, I know there are some Lippmann's in Rochester, are you familiar with any elsewhere in the U.S.?

Sorry I made you ill

I guess I don't follow your question. Sorry.

If you mean people with that name, I guess I am not aware of any personally anywhere.

PE

Ray Rogers · Apr 23, 2010

Photo Engineer said:
I guess I don't follow your question. Sorry.

If you mean people with that name, I guess I am not aware of any personally anywhere.

PE

The first Lippmann I met in DC; He lived in the basement for a while then became owner or something of a popular "gentleman's club" in georgetown; I assume "gentleman" here is a socially acceptable way of saying nude or topless bar. Strange use of language but in anycase,
he was not related.

However, there is a Lippmann at the Smithsonian... down the street aways.

It (obviously, a Lippmann photograph) used to be on display for quite a while but had been taken down the last time I checked. I have details tucked away for the curious....

Photo Engineer · Apr 23, 2010

I had not figured that this was about actual Lippmann color plates. Most museums have removed them due to the problems with the mercury. So, since they are not on display I would not know what they have in storage. I would assume that George Eastman House has some stored away but they probably will not display them.

PE

Ray Rogers · Apr 23, 2010

Photo Engineer said:
I had not figured that this was about actual Lippmann color plates. Most museums have removed them due to the problems with the mercury. So, since they are not on display I would not know what they have in storage. I would assume that George Eastman House has some stored away but they probably will not display them.

PE

Hg was only required for making (quality) Lipps, not for their viewing.
As far as I know, there is no residual Hg in the processed plates, but I guess that is mere speculation; I do not know that this has actually been studied.

Ray

Photo Engineer · Apr 23, 2010

Ray;

See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lippmann_plate

I should have been more specific. Lippmann plates cannot be copied and very few of them were made. They are thus not abundant as museum pieces, and due to the toxicity of Mercury, few are being made today. I am referring to the color plates only.

In addition, the very limited viewing angle makes them less than ideal as display pieces.

That is my take on why you rarely see them.

PE

Ray Rogers · Apr 23, 2010

Yes they sure are few and far between!
As an article of photography for the enjoyment of the masses they fail almost every test.
The can have a nice "luminosity" if you will; sometimes almost like looking at reflector tape.

Unfortunately, seeing them is sometimes like trying to balance a jumping bean on your nose while standing on a bowling ball!

---
PS good luck with your (computer) recovery! Sounds like they should offer you a free year's subscription.

Photo Engineer · Apr 23, 2010

Ray Rogers said:
---
PS good luck with your (computer) recovery! Sounds like they should offer you a free year's subscription.

Thanks. My wife and I were just discussing that!

PE

Hologram · Apr 25, 2010

R Shaffer said:
Would the pyro formula I have come across in several places be a colloidal developer? I could not decide if the GP-2 or pyro developer would give me the best chance of success.

I assume you mean pyro + ammonia. Yes, since ammonia is an AgX solvent that would be a colloidal (or solution-physical) developer. The problem involved with is ammonia evaporation, which makes the solvent action of this developer very unreliable.

Hologram · Apr 25, 2010

holmburgers said:
Lastly, could someone explain this sentence.... "The Slavich [PFG-03c] emulsion requires pre-development hardening in a formaldehyde solution." Is this the fogging that R Shaffer was referring to??

No. Actually their fogging problem, I understand, was mainly caused by inconvenient packaging (I heard they had used formaldehyde treated cupboards)
The pre-hardening helps the very soft emulsion survive the processing baths.

holmburgers said:
BTW: Lippmann plates can be projected, which to me seems like one of the most practical ways to display. It requires an aphengescope type projector (basically an opaque projector as far as I can tell). Here is a book link that describes it.... http://books.google.com/books?id=pq...=0CAYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=aphengescope&f=false

Yes, that's also been mentioned in one of the files I put online.

The light source of your projector would have to be carefully chosen, since its spectral composition determines what color range you'll get from your Lippmann photographs.

Hologram · Apr 25, 2010

Ray Rogers said:
Yes they sure are few and far between!
As an article of photography for the enjoyment of the masses they fail almost every test.
The can have a nice "luminosity" if you will; sometimes almost like looking at reflector tape.

Ray, I remember the video you recorded when we went to see the Lippmann collection at the Musée de l'Elysée (http://www.elysee.ch/index.php?id=144&L=1) in Lausanne, Switzerland. As you know they have the world's largest collection of Lippmann photographs, I believe some 120 plates by Gabriel Lippmann. Have you been able to digitize that video in the meantime?
Given the rarity of original Lippmann photographs, your video might be a pretty interesting and unique document - even if the viewing conditions at the museum were far from ideal (fluorescent tubes!!!).

Hologram · Apr 25, 2010

Photo Engineer said:
Lippmann plates cannot be copied and very few of them were made.PE

There might exist some diffractive, "holographic" approaches to copying a Lippmann plate.

R Shaffer · Apr 25, 2010

Hologram said:
I assume you mean pyro + ammonia. Yes, since ammonia is an AgX solvent that would be a colloidal (or solution-physical) developer. The problem involved with is ammonia evaporation, which makes the solvent action of this developer very unreliable.

Yes, I was referring to the Lumeire Pyrogallol-Ammonia developer. I could not decide which developer would be better, so I ordered both the GP-2 premix and the pyrogallic acid from PF so I could try both. Would a small covered tray help reduce evaporation?

I had never heard of solution-physical development prior to researching this, pretty fascinating.

Have you tried using glyoxal for hardening holographic plates? That is the hardener I have on hand & was planning to use. PF does sell the 37% formaldehyde solution, but I am going to try an avoid it.

I now have the plates & chemicals on the way to try this experiment out. I'll be sending half the plates on to Chris ( holmburgers ) as he is my 'partner in crime' on this. I am about half way through fabricating a plate holder with large black space behind the plate and should have it finished today.

holmburgers · Apr 25, 2010

R Shaffer, I'll be curious to know how you modify your film holder. I'm currently running some ideas thru my head, but nothing concrete yet. I'm considering that a typical 4x5" holder isn't thick enough to accommodate black velvet, mat board, etc (even by cutting thru the center divider). Perhaps an old Polaroid back would be "cavernous" enough to allow for easier modification?

What type of developer would GP-2 be classified as and how does it differ from the Lumiere Pyro developer? I'm tempted to try the Lumiere developer first, due to its history with the Lippmann process; I feel some assurance that it's "time tested". However, as Bjelkhagen is using the GP-2 with these modern Slavich materials, there's certainly reason to go with that as well.

R Shaffer · Apr 25, 2010

I cut the aluminum divider out of a 4x5 film holder. Made a 3 x 4 plate holder out of a manila folder & layered up 4 ply mat board. The manila folder layer resides in the film slot, with the mat board layers built up behind ( 2 layers 4ply seems just shy of 2.5mm ). Your right that it is too thin, so I built a box out of 2 layers of foam core painted with black primer. The whole thing is pretty close to 2" in thickness. I need to stop off at the hardware store & get Krylon Ultra Ultra Flat Black. I guess that is what a lot of the DIY telescope builders use for anti reflective coating. I'll PM some photos. Bjelkhagen used a modified graphmatic film holder, which is pretty deep. My polaroid holder is not deep enough and is made of pressed steel.

The GP-2 is considered a solution-physical developer because of the thiocyanate and the Lumiere from the ammonia. Here is a link on solution-physical developers - http://unblinkingeye.com/Articles/Physical/physical.html Gets over my head pretty quickly, so maybe someone else will chime in.

michaelbsc · Apr 26, 2010

R Shaffer said:
... I'll PM some photos. Bjelkhagen used a modified graphmatic film holder, which is pretty deep.

Can you post some pictures. I have in mind that an old Graflex film pack holder may be think enough. And since no one makes film packs any more they're basically useless.

Ripping the septums out of a Graphmatic seems kind of a waste if the pack film holder will work.

Just a though. But seeing your pics could help make it make sense.

R Shaffer · Apr 26, 2010

michaelbsc said:
Can you post some pictures. I have in mind that an old Graflex film pack holder may be think enough. And since no one makes film packs any more they're basically useless.

Ripping the septums out of a Graphmatic seems kind of a waste if the pack film holder will work.

Just a though. But seeing your pics could help make it make sense.

It is a film pack adapter ( not a graphmatic ) they modified. I am not very familiar with them, so I'm not sure how much they changed it, other than gluing felt to the back. Shoot me a PM and I'll send you the whole paper on making Lippmann Plates. It has a photo of the authors modified film pack adapter along with a whole description & history of the process.

Anyone ever make Lippmann plates?

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