An alternative to gelatin.

[patrickdufour]

Hey guys,

After years of shooting 35mm and medium format I've recently discovered a passion for large format photography.
I've been wanting to take a stab at coating my own plates and was wondering if there is an emulsion that can be brewed that contains no gelatin. As a vegetarian I thought it would be a fun project to take up.

Cheers Patrick.

P.S. I understand that the only way to avoid all animal products is to move into an Igloo and gnaw on pine cones.

 

[holmburgers]

Yeah right... the Inuit are some of the best meat eaters out there...

wildbillbugman (Bill Winkler) has been doing a lot of work on exactly this thing. See (there was a url link here which no longer exists)

And (there was a url link here which no longer exists)on how to select a medium.

Now, if you're the kind of vegetarian that eats fish, maybe fish gelatin is the thing for you! Check (there was a url link here which no longer exists) out.

Or I guess you could pick up the collodion process. The only living-thing ingredient there is cotton.

Best of luck.

 

[wildbillbugman]

Patrick,
If you wish, I will send you a specific formula and procedure for a blue-sensitive emulsion based on commercial silane treated PVA. I am currently waiting for a delivery of silver nitrate and have not made an emulsion since September. I have had other things I had to do. If you are interested in ortho or panchro emulsions, I can send info on that too. But I strongly recommend doing a simple blue sensitive emulsion first. BTW- Bostick and Sullivan now carry Kuraray R1100 silane funtional PVA.
Bill

 

[CRhymer]

Patrick,

If not, you can always shred the new $100 Canadian banknotes, when released. I believe they are being made of the same material.

Cheers,
Clarence

 

[David Lyga]

Also, I am a vegetarian and am very cognizant of the hypocrasy which I am guilty of. I do wish there was a 'way out' of the dilemma. - David Lyga.

 

[Vaughn]

Can vegans eat their own words?

 

[Photo Engineer]

Gelatin supplies 2 important functions in emulsion making. Gelatin functions as a peptizing agent and as a vehicle.

As a peptizer, it prevents silver halide from falling to the bottom of your beaker in one lump or a few large lumps. Instead, gelatin suspends the crystals in a creamy mixture.

As a vehicle, it supplies a viscous "melt" that can be coated and hardened and which remains intact through the processing procedure. It must be transparent and colorless.

If you select a material for emulsion making it must do all of the above. At EK we never found a single polymer that could do all of the above. We found two families of polymers that supplied the features of a peptizing agent and as a vehicle individually. That is about it.

Bill has had some success with the Silanes. I hope this is of use to all of us.

PE

 

[patrickdufour]

holmburgers: thank you for the links.
wildbillbugman: Thank you, I would appreciate the formula and procedure for the blue-sensitive emulsion based on commercial silane.
CRhymer: I can't wait to pick up some new 100$ and make a trip to NYC.
David Lyga: its a hard line to draw.
Vaughn: Deciding where to draw the line is an interesting experience. You tend to learn a lot about yourself.
Photo Engineer: Thanks for explanation about its function when you say you worked at EK where was that?

Thank you everybody for your help.

 

[CRhymer]

CRhymer: I can't wait to pick up some new 100$ and make a trip to NYC.

Hello Patrick,

Well I just got back from Rochester, NY (I live in Fort Smith, NT, X0E 0P0) and I found that my old pre-PVA 100$'s bought a lot more there than they do here North of 60. I believe Kuraray is the supplier of the plastic for the notes. (I am not making this up - 'though I may be mistaken).

Salut,
Clarence

 

[MattKing]

Photo Engineer: Thanks for explanation about its function when you say you worked at EK where was that?

Thank you everybody for your help.

I won't presume to answer for Ron (aka Photo Engineer), except to give Patrick a sort of hint:

Ron's name is attached to one of the main patents related to Kodachrome, and he lives in Rochester, New York.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Heh! Thanks.

PE

 

[wildbillbugman]

Patrick,
I sent you a PM.
Bill

 

[cliveh]

Gelatin supplies 2 important functions in emulsion making. Gelatin functions as a peptizing agent and as a vehicle.

As a peptizer, it prevents silver halide from falling to the bottom of your beaker in one lump or a few large lumps. Instead, gelatin suspends the crystals in a creamy mixture.

As a vehicle, it supplies a viscous "melt" that can be coated and hardened and which remains intact through the processing procedure. It must be transparent and colorless.

If you select a material for emulsion making it must do all of the above. At EK we never found a single polymer that could do all of the above. We found two families of polymers that supplied the features of a peptizing agent and as a vehicle individually. That is about it.

Bill has had some success with the Silanes. I hope this is of use to all of us.

PE

Yes, but in terms of image aesthetics is it really necessary. Salt prints, Van Dyke and Platinum don't need it.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Some salt prints use egg albumen which is gelatin! Gelatian supplies a glossy surface or carries matting agents for a matte surface or other effects. But needed? No, unless you want SPEED!!! Or perhaps COLOR, or even INSTANT!!!

There is also uniform coating, high speed coating and a host of other things.

PE

 

[shon_soue]

Has anyone here managed to create gelatin free negative film?

 

[cliveh]

Has anyone here managed to create gelatin free negative film?

That depends what you mean by film, but see my previous post.

 

[Clocker]

I do not know if this would apply to what you are trying to accomplish and I do not know much about chemistry, but 2 things come to mind if looking for a type of plant that would make a gelatin like product.

One would be agar and the other carrageenan, one is a culture product of algae used for growing mushrooms and the other is obtained from seaweed used as a common ingredient in milk products like ice cream.

They are both gelatin-like.

I have no idea how these would react to any type of photographic process or if they would have application at all and I also don't think these would be very permanent.

Could these products be used in some type of non-silver based photography?

 

[TheFlyingCamera]

If you want an alternative to gelatin for coating negative-producing plates, just get into wet plate collodion. The chemistry is messy, the results are irregular, but you are dealing with a 100% animal-free product. Silver nitrate, collodion (cotton fibers dissolved in alcohol), ether, cadmium bromide, potassium bromide or iodide, sugar, ferrous sulfate, and cyanide (or hypo). All plant-based or inorganic.

 

[michael9793]

Are you eating the gelatin when working or what. there is a lot of processes to make prints without gelatin. Pt/Pl is one.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Collodion is an ether solution of guncotton! It is flammable and explosive, so take care!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collodion

Gelatin serves many purposes in today''s modern emulsion making. It makes high speed and safe emulsions with good hardness and keeping.

PE

 

[steven_e007]

Wasn't there some experiments with latex years ago???
:-0

Thing about vegetarianism is... vegetarians tend to replace meat with dairy produce.

I.e: Food products made from the lactose secretion of cows that is no longer needed to feed the baby calf that has just been slaughtered for veal.

I can understand Vegans getting hot under the collar about gelatine, but vegetarians?

My cousin went vegan for a while. He lived in a damp house. Determined not to use any animal produce at all he redecorated using wallpaper paste guaranteed free of animal products.

Then his wallpaper fell off...

 

[Photo Engineer]

Steve;

When I was a child, wall paper paste was made from pure wheat paste. I remember helping mix the stuff.

PE

 

[steven_e007]

Steve;

When I was a child, wall paper paste was made from pure wheat paste. I remember helping mix the stuff.

PE

We live in the UK. It is cold and damp. Trust me... you need the fish glue over here

 

[Photo Engineer]

That must stink! Wow.

PE

 

[steven_e007]

Only as much as your films stink of cow