An alternative to gelatin.

patrickdufour · Nov 18, 2011

Hey guys,

After years of shooting 35mm and medium format I've recently discovered a passion for large format photography.
I've been wanting to take a stab at coating my own plates and was wondering if there is an emulsion that can be brewed that contains no gelatin. As a vegetarian I thought it would be a fun project to take up.

Cheers Patrick.

P.S. I understand that the only way to avoid all animal products is to move into an Igloo and gnaw on pine cones.

holmburgers · Nov 18, 2011

Yeah right... the Inuit are some of the best meat eaters out there...

wildbillbugman (Bill Winkler) has been doing a lot of work on exactly this thing. See (there was a url link here which no longer exists)

And (there was a url link here which no longer exists)on how to select a medium.

Now, if you're the kind of vegetarian that eats fish, maybe fish gelatin is the thing for you! Check (there was a url link here which no longer exists) out.

Or I guess you could pick up the collodion process. The only living-thing ingredient there is cotton.

Best of luck.

wildbillbugman · Nov 18, 2011

Patrick,
If you wish, I will send you a specific formula and procedure for a blue-sensitive emulsion based on commercial silane treated PVA. I am currently waiting for a delivery of silver nitrate and have not made an emulsion since September. I have had other things I had to do. If you are interested in ortho or panchro emulsions, I can send info on that too. But I strongly recommend doing a simple blue sensitive emulsion first. BTW- Bostick and Sullivan now carry Kuraray R1100 silane funtional PVA.
Bill

CRhymer · Nov 18, 2011

Patrick,

If not, you can always shred the new $100 Canadian banknotes, when released. I believe they are being made of the same material.

Cheers,
Clarence

David Lyga · Nov 18, 2011

Also, I am a vegetarian and am very cognizant of the hypocrasy which I am guilty of. I do wish there was a 'way out' of the dilemma. - David Lyga.

Vaughn · Nov 18, 2011

Can vegans eat their own words?

Photo Engineer · Nov 18, 2011

Gelatin supplies 2 important functions in emulsion making. Gelatin functions as a peptizing agent and as a vehicle.

As a peptizer, it prevents silver halide from falling to the bottom of your beaker in one lump or a few large lumps. Instead, gelatin suspends the crystals in a creamy mixture.

As a vehicle, it supplies a viscous "melt" that can be coated and hardened and which remains intact through the processing procedure. It must be transparent and colorless.

If you select a material for emulsion making it must do all of the above. At EK we never found a single polymer that could do all of the above. We found two families of polymers that supplied the features of a peptizing agent and as a vehicle individually. That is about it.

Bill has had some success with the Silanes. I hope this is of use to all of us.

PE

patrickdufour · Nov 18, 2011

holmburgers: thank you for the links.
wildbillbugman: Thank you, I would appreciate the formula and procedure for the blue-sensitive emulsion based on commercial silane.
CRhymer: I can't wait to pick up some new 100$ and make a trip to NYC.
David Lyga: its a hard line to draw.
Vaughn: Deciding where to draw the line is an interesting experience. You tend to learn a lot about yourself.
Photo Engineer: Thanks for explanation about its function when you say you worked at EK where was that?

Thank you everybody for your help.

CRhymer · Nov 18, 2011

patrickdufour said:
CRhymer: I can't wait to pick up some new 100$ and make a trip to NYC.

Hello Patrick,

Well I just got back from Rochester, NY (I live in Fort Smith, NT, X0E 0P0) and I found that my old pre-PVA 100$'s bought a lot more there than they do here North of 60. I believe Kuraray is the supplier of the plastic for the notes. (I am not making this up - 'though I may be mistaken).

Salut,
Clarence

MattKing · Nov 18, 2011

patrickdufour said:
Photo Engineer: Thanks for explanation about its function when you say you worked at EK where was that?

Thank you everybody for your help.

I won't presume to answer for Ron (aka Photo Engineer), except to give Patrick a sort of hint:

Ron's name is attached to one of the main patents related to Kodachrome, and he lives in Rochester, New York.

Photo Engineer · Nov 18, 2011

Heh! Thanks.

PE

wildbillbugman · Nov 19, 2011

Patrick,
I sent you a PM.
Bill

cliveh · Nov 22, 2011

Photo Engineer said:
Gelatin supplies 2 important functions in emulsion making. Gelatin functions as a peptizing agent and as a vehicle.

As a peptizer, it prevents silver halide from falling to the bottom of your beaker in one lump or a few large lumps. Instead, gelatin suspends the crystals in a creamy mixture.

As a vehicle, it supplies a viscous "melt" that can be coated and hardened and which remains intact through the processing procedure. It must be transparent and colorless.

If you select a material for emulsion making it must do all of the above. At EK we never found a single polymer that could do all of the above. We found two families of polymers that supplied the features of a peptizing agent and as a vehicle individually. That is about it.

Bill has had some success with the Silanes. I hope this is of use to all of us.

PE

Yes, but in terms of image aesthetics is it really necessary. Salt prints, Van Dyke and Platinum don't need it.

Photo Engineer · Nov 22, 2011

Some salt prints use egg albumen which is gelatin! Gelatian supplies a glossy surface or carries matting agents for a matte surface or other effects. But needed? No, unless you want SPEED!!! Or perhaps COLOR, or even INSTANT!!!

There is also uniform coating, high speed coating and a host of other things.

PE

shon_soue · Feb 26, 2012

Has anyone here managed to create gelatin free negative film?

cliveh · Feb 26, 2012

shon_soue said:
Has anyone here managed to create gelatin free negative film?

That depends what you mean by film, but see my previous post.

Clocker · Apr 30, 2012

I do not know if this would apply to what you are trying to accomplish and I do not know much about chemistry, but 2 things come to mind if looking for a type of plant that would make a gelatin like product.

One would be agar and the other carrageenan, one is a culture product of algae used for growing mushrooms and the other is obtained from seaweed used as a common ingredient in milk products like ice cream.

They are both gelatin-like.

I have no idea how these would react to any type of photographic process or if they would have application at all and I also don't think these would be very permanent.

Could these products be used in some type of non-silver based photography?

TheFlyingCamera · May 1, 2012

If you want an alternative to gelatin for coating negative-producing plates, just get into wet plate collodion. The chemistry is messy, the results are irregular, but you are dealing with a 100% animal-free product. Silver nitrate, collodion (cotton fibers dissolved in alcohol), ether, cadmium bromide, potassium bromide or iodide, sugar, ferrous sulfate, and cyanide (or hypo). All plant-based or inorganic.

michael9793 · May 1, 2012

Are you eating the gelatin when working or what. there is a lot of processes to make prints without gelatin. Pt/Pl is one.

Photo Engineer · May 1, 2012

Collodion is an ether solution of guncotton! It is flammable and explosive, so take care!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collodion

Gelatin serves many purposes in today''s modern emulsion making. It makes high speed and safe emulsions with good hardness and keeping.

PE

steven_e007 · May 1, 2012

Wasn't there some experiments with latex years ago???
:-0

Thing about vegetarianism is... vegetarians tend to replace meat with dairy produce.

I.e: Food products made from the lactose secretion of cows that is no longer needed to feed the baby calf that has just been slaughtered for veal.

I can understand Vegans getting hot under the collar about gelatine, but vegetarians?

My cousin went vegan for a while. He lived in a damp house. Determined not to use any animal produce at all he redecorated using wallpaper paste guaranteed free of animal products.

Then his wallpaper fell off...

Photo Engineer · May 1, 2012

Steve;

When I was a child, wall paper paste was made from pure wheat paste. I remember helping mix the stuff.

PE

steven_e007 · May 1, 2012

Photo Engineer said:
Steve;

When I was a child, wall paper paste was made from pure wheat paste. I remember helping mix the stuff.

PE

We live in the UK. It is cold and damp. Trust me... you need the fish glue over here

Photo Engineer · May 1, 2012

That must stink! Wow.

PE

steven_e007 · May 1, 2012

Only as much as your films stink of cow

An alternative to gelatin.

patrickdufour

holmburgers

wildbillbugman

CRhymer

David Lyga

Vaughn

Photo Engineer

patrickdufour

CRhymer

MattKing

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Photo Engineer

wildbillbugman

cliveh

Photo Engineer

shon_soue

cliveh

Clocker

TheFlyingCamera

Membership Council

michael9793

Photo Engineer

steven_e007

Photo Engineer

steven_e007

Photo Engineer

steven_e007

An alternative to gelatin.

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