Alternative E-6

[cinejerk]

Yes I would like to mix my own also. Unfortunately some of the many chemicals are becoming more difficult to find. Either hazmat or un-obtainium.
Please share sources so all of us can become a alchemist;-)

 

[mts]

Here are three suppiers in the US/Canada. Other major chemical houses like Sigma/Aldrich won't accept individual accounts. Kodak is largely out of the organics business, at least for the retail market. You can also look for sources offshore in India and China, but getting delivery in the US is difficult.

Dead Link Removed
http://www.spectrumchemical.com/
http://www.photoformulary.com/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabindex=0&tabid=1
https://www.artcraftchemicals.com/products_1.php

 

[Photo Engineer]

I'll add Antec at www.kyantec.com.

PE

 

[cinejerk]

Amazing. One of those suppliers actually had citrazinic acid. 25gm $34 plus shipping. ouch.
That should last for a while though.

 

[stefan4u]

Citracinic Acid is one of the chemicals you can play with

Less gives MORE contrast in the higher density regions. With my somehow preaged film I take as less as 0.6 g/Litre.

Even heard about omitting it completely by some authors, but I can’t recover the source. And to be honest, can’t recommend it if you are “boosting” developing the same time with EDA in the CD and BZT in the FD… (Exception may be possible if brewing a quite soft working FD)

The only “E6” exclusive agents are Citracinic Acid and (as I learned the hard way) Ethylene Diamine. Be aware that the most consumed factor is definitely time!!

All other ingredients, including HQ-sulfonate, are much more universal and can be used for various BW formulations including BW reversals and color developers. Seen from this perspective these (still expensive) specialties simply give you more possibilities…


Regards,
Stefan

 

[Photo Engineer]

Stefan;

Citrazinic acid decreases contrast and dmax. It is a coupler that forms a water soluable cyan/green dye. By chewing up oxidized color developer, less image dye forms. This makes dye clouds smaller and closer to the developing silver halide crystals. It can therefore increase sharpness and decrease grain. It also decreases dmax.

PE

 

[cinejerk]

Glad to see there are some here that know the chemistry a lot better than me. ;-)
I'm finding CD-3 a little difficult to find also. Although I did find a source on ebay.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=7616119786

 

[Athiril]

Same, I cant find CD4 in Australia though at all :/

This is the response I got from JDPhotoChem

"CD-3 has been replaced by CD-4 (#C-114 on the price list), which takes twice
as less as the CD-3. Ex: if you need 50 g of the CD-3, with the CD-4 you
would need 25 g."

 

[Photo Engineer]

This statement is incorrect. I've said it many times.

CD-4 used in Kodachrome, E6 or RA processes in place of CD-3 will give dyes with incoreect hues and worse image stability. Publishing that outright error should be stopped!

PE

 

[srs5694]

FWIW, the eBay seller that cinejerk identified is Art Craft under another name. The eBay price is $1 more than the direct Web site price, although I didn't check shipping charges. I've bought from ArtCraft before and they seem quite reliable.

 

[cinejerk]

Thanks srs5694, I didn't know that. I'll need to take another look at ArtCraft.

Yes by no means are ebay's prices a good deal unless you are very careful.

I checked the shipping on the website versus ebay.

The website came up with an automatic: $6.33

Ebay's price for my location came up with: $7

Their ebay listing does give the option for best offer.
Wonder how far you would get with that.
I think I'll give it a low ball try. ;-)

Just for grins I went through ArtCraft's chemicals and filled their cart
with ones on my list. They only had 11 out of 17 and my bill was $123.50 + $15.43 shipping.
I put in absolute minimum quantities for a 4 liter supply.
Probably a much shipping total than ebay but not sure on the item prices.

I think I'm going with kodak or unicolor ;-(

JDPhoto had everything on my list for $86.50 don't know the shipping yet.

 

[srs5694]

I've never ordered from JD Photochem, so I can't comment on them. ArtCraft generally has good, but not great, prices, in my experience. The problem really is that the places with the best prices are also usually the ones with the worst selection, from a photochemistry point of view. The Chemistry Store has great prices on the items they carry (sodium sulfite, sodium thiosulfate, ascorbic acid, TEA, and a few others), but they lack many common photochemicals (metol, phenidone, hydroquinone, ammonium thiosulfate, etc.). Photographer's Formulary has a great selection (although no CD-3 at the moment), but their prices are higher than most places that'll sell to hobbyists. Others, like ArtCraft, are in-between on this spectrum.

 

[cinejerk]

This is probably common knowledge around here but...

And I realize how many different chemicals are involved here but...

And I know it's probably easier to mix liquid chemicals but...

Why isn't there a E-6 dry chemical kit?

I just don't like shipping water!

 

[Photo Engineer]

I've posted the answer to this one elsewhere.

It is virtually impossible and very expensive to make dry versions of Ammonium Ferric EDTA and Ammonium Hypo and the Sodium salts are so much less active in doing their jobs, that a dry kit is very difficult and would be very expensive if done properly.

There are dry kits and I warn you about their activity. They are slow to react and require long bleach and fix times.

PE

 

[cinejerk]

This recipe seems too simple. Is this a good one? Why not?

http://www.opie.net/orphy/photo/dr/wkft-e6.html

 

[Photo Engineer]

There are better formulas out there. See right here on APUG for some.

The first developer should use HQ Monosulfonate instead of HQ for example, and the Color Developer lacks Ethylene Diamine as another. Use of a Ferricyanide bleach requires the use of sulfite in the stop bath, a wash and a clearing bath or the Ferri can cause severe stains.

The list is long and tedious and I have posted the errors on this web site elsewhere on APUG. Try a search here for formulas. Some are much better being closer to the real thing.

PE

 

[stefan4u]

High cinejerk !

That “chromebrew” was my starting point 1 ½ jears ago.

It does work in a certain way, but far away from being perfect. You will end with the astonishing surprise seeing virtually all colors of the rainbow Color crossovers (much more nasty than a simple color shift) due wrong pH, wrong developing agent in the FD false amount of restrainers and so on will happen…
If you are persistent enough and fiddling around “a bit” you will have chance to get some quite well slides, but a day later things may be different. I had a link on Page 1 of this thread for that. The “receipt 1, base receipt” works quite well (at least better than the Watkins formulation), but still misses the DEA instead of SCN in the CD…

Maybe ask mts, he does have a few promising formulations too.

Regards,
Stefan

 

[Athiril]

Here are my preliminary results from developing with Xtol, fogging/reversing and then colour developing with C41 developer, the film picture here is Reala 100, so its also 'cross-processed' to a positive, had no idea of the starting point with Xtol, anyway i put this single frame off and dried it with a towel to get a quick pic of it with my dSLR as I was excited at the time..

 

[cinejerk]

Just to many gotcha's with diy mixing. I haven't found one supplier of HQ mono.
Doesn't pay to spend all this money on chemicals to end up with minimal results.
I think I'm more convinced than ever to stick with the experts.

After some searching I see that the availability of Hydroquinone Monosulfate
is an on going problem.
Another non-obtainium.

 

[Athiril]

I've almost nailed the B&W first develop process using Xtol, Colour Develop using C41 developer.

This is a night shot, as well as a C41 film (Superia XTRA 800), so quite blue, but full range of colours and contrast is there

The positive/slide looks great!

 

[mts]

More examples...

These examples were made using Fuji Provia 100. The snow scene was made last week and the Water Canyon trail shot was taken yesterday afternoon. Spring in New Mexico's Jemez mountains brings all kinds of weather!

The orchid picture was made in my greenhouse that obviously sees fewer seasonal changes.

These samples were made with MQ ratio 1:1 in the first developer which seems to give nice contrast balance. I am still using hydroquinone and not the sulfate, but have some of the latter on order and intend to compare results. According to PE results might be seen in dye longevity that will likely show up long after I am gone.

Bleaching was done using the quinone-persulfate formula that I find to work quite well. I have tried several bleach formulae and like this one best.

 

[cinejerk]

Hey MTS please share with us some of your formulas for E-6. I PM'd you and did not get a response???

 

[Athiril]

Those look pretty damn good on my monitor, looks like optical prints from them would look good too, if the colours arent exact, theyre easily close enough to it to put them wherever you want in digital darkroom

What excites me most about Alternative E6 is bringing B&W techniques to the first developer stage

and mts you can send all your positives to me, I can compare them in 40 years since I'm only 23, then some time (a long time hopefully!) i'll let you know in the afterlife/etc how they turned out

 

[Photo Engineer]

Just an FYI. Quinone is not exactly benign. Kodak abandoned use in the 50s for all products intended for use in home darkrooms due to the problems caused by inhalation of the quinone vapors. Quinone forms Quinhydrone which was once used in green ink. It too was abandoned due to the problems caused by the vapors.

So, if you use Quinone, please handle with care and avoid inhaling the pungent vapors.

PE

 

[mts]

Indeed, I my darkroom sink has a hood fan to facilitate processing, chemical mixing, and to vent fumes. Quinone concentration tends to be low in this bleach and vapors are not objectionable. In larger quantities for use in tanks and most definitely in automated processors fumes could present problems. One would not want to spend hours on end standing over the chemistry even in a well-ventilated area.