Alternative color processes.

[sanking]

Having made separation negatives both ways, I see the merit of both and the problems inherent in both.

I feel that either digital or analog can be used as long as everyone knows exactly what they are seeing when they get the finished product. I also have to admit to getting frustrated, tired and hot in both the darkroom and in front of the computer.

PE

Ron,

I have seen many vintage color carbon and cabro prints made from analog separations and many contemporary ones made from digital imagesetter negatives. There is absolutley no doubt but that the level of tonal and color controls that are possible, and being achieved by a few master carbon printers today with digital separations, is well beyond what any of the greatest color printers of the past were able to achieve in carbon or carbro printing. Anyone who believes otherwise is living in the past.



Sandy

 

[Silverhead]

I would say that "Mac" McCowan is definitely among the best. I saw some of his prints when he did a free seminar at Freestyle a while back and his work was absolutely lush with tone and texture.

 

[z-man]

STONE TABLETS ARE VERY HEAVY!!!

Z-Man,

You sound like one of the old-testament prophets come down from the arid mountains to spread God's word ? Do you print on stone tablets?

Sandy

SANDY

THANX FOR THE VERY REAL COMPLIMENT(no joke intended)

my lack of talent with a lithographers crayon and the considerable wt of limestone pushed me into what we now call "alt process' in the 60's

at that time i joined an artists collective and we leased a xerox color copier-it was 3/c and very cranky since a crowd of artists can stress any machine past its limits

running that machine taught me a lot about the limitations of 3/c

sandy you are a most perceptive person-but for me to allow comparison of myself to real prophets is , in my religion, blasphemy so i must explain

i have been since 1982 an imam and chaplain to artists and other irregular people

yes my heart is in the past but i live here and now and i earned my living in the city that never sleeps

sandy -your hard work publishing all your data re uv wavelengths has been a geat help to me in chosing the uv leds i now use-we all owe you

i wish i could return to the arid mountains where many of my ancesters resided(i have a lot of berber blood in my veins)

sandy-of course p e is right-each way has +'s & -'s but to missrepresent work as ANANLOG PHOTORAPHIC when it is at least 75% hybred is not nice

i ask the indulgence of all while i attempt the impossible-to render into english alKoran:

"Oh unbelievers"
"I don't worship what you worship"
"you don't worship what i worship"
"I will not worship what you worship"
"you won't worship what i worship"
"You have your way-i have my way"
soorah 109 ya Kaffirun; al Kor'an

i usually choose analog separations-so what?

you ALLWAYS choose to use software to do seps and print "negatives" via inkjet(i assume)-so what?

i never call people "INSANE" since i am not judge nor md

do you get what you want?-i don't know

i like to over print cyanatypes with a beet juice stained emulsion layer but my tumerec (yelo) emulsions are still not consistent enuf to make anything but very surreal 4/c(i tea stain the cyanotypes)

i have gone as 'green' as possible since my 40+yrs of swimming in toxic art materials
may be the reason why my sickle-cell condition is now flaming out of control

even tho you don't have the genetic markers i have i advise everyone to look long and hard at the very real dangers of the analog world of chemestry

this is a plug on my part for the digital world since it does sheild you from chem toxins

my 3 macs are very busy as are my epson scaner and printer

ENUF AWREADY!!!

vaya con dios

 

[z-man]

LUSH SOUNDS NICE

I would say that "Mac" McCowan is definitely among the best. I saw some of his prints when he did a free seminar at Freestyle a while back and his work was absolutely lush with tone and texture.

is his work photo-realistic or interpritive/exprssive?

does he do 4/c, 3/c, mono?

please share-have not been able to get out to cali for a long time

thanx

vaya con dios

 

[z-man]

amen to that!

Having made separation negatives both ways, I see the merit of both and the problems inherent in both.

I feel that either digital or analog can be used as long as everyone knows exactly what they are seeing when they get the finished product. I also have to admit to getting frustrated, tired and hot in both the darkroom and in front of the computer.

PE

pe-

did you do analog in a process camera and screen them or continuous tone in an 8x10 or 4x5?

thanx

vaya con dios

 

[sanking]

i usually choose analog separations-so what?

you ALLWAYS choose to use software to do seps and print "negatives" via inkjet(i assume)-so what?


vaya con dios

Z-Man,

Every color carbon or carbro print I have made has been from analog separations. I have never made a color print in my life with digital separations. Have you ever made a color carbon print? If you have not we are probably not on the save wavelength in this discussion because color carbon is a whole new ball-game compared to any other type of color process you may ever have worked.

And I definitely do not always use software to print negatives via inkjet. I work and print on a regular basis from in-camera negatives in ULF formats from 7X17 to 20X24 in size. If you think I only print with digital negatives you have me confused with someone else.

And what is with this method of communication through sentence dictums, as if you were giving the ten commandments of photographic morality (or 200 as it were). Threads are most useful IMO when they are limited to the sharing of information and not ego.

Sandy King

 

[Photo Engineer]

pe-

did you do analog in a process camera and screen them or continuous tone in an 8x10 or 4x5?

thanx

vaya con dios

I never did process work. I mentioned that above, I'm sure. I have watched it done in the EK process lab with one of their room sized cameras, and the size, IIRC, was 30 x 40.

I have done Dye Transfer and Flexicolor (chrome) from analog originals. I made my DT separations on 4x5 Super XX with WR 98, 99 and 70 filters using an enlarger. I then made 8x10 matrices and rolled them out. I enjoyed DT and Flexicolor so little I cannot express my dislike in words. You are right to say it is complex and very demanding. Virtually all of my color work is using color neg and printing on Endura or making cross processed or Sabbatier derivative prints and negatives. I have posted some samples here and on Photo Net.

Much of my work was making my own coatings and testing them at EK. For years, working in a darkroom 8 hours / day ruined photography at home in my darkroom. I would bring home 'homework' to do in the darkroom here. I would make a coating at work and sometimes test it here using a normal and an experimental process. I guess my job was fun. Like a banker bringing home money to count. Fun, but it was someone elses money after all.

I have made digital separations, but have not used them for any practical purpose, as I have been fully tied up with emulsion making in my darkroom for about 2 years. My Jobo is in mothballs. In the slide show of me making and coating emulsions, you see the Jobo in the background. I use it to hold sheets of coated film or paper for inspection before hanging to dry.

PE

 

[z-man]

IT HURTS WHEN I DO THAT

I never did process work. I mentioned that above, I'm sure. I have watched it done in the EK process lab with one of their room sized cameras, and the size, IIRC, was 30 x 40.

I have done Dye Transfer and Flexicolor (chrome) from analog originals. I made my DT separations on 4x5 Super XX with WR 98, 99 and 70 filters using an enlarger. I then made 8x10 matrices and rolled them out. I enjoyed DT and Flexicolor so little I cannot express my dislike in words. You are right to say it is complex and very demanding. Virtually all of my color work is using color neg and printing on Endura or making cross processed or Sabbatier derivative prints and negatives. I have posted some samples here and on Photo Net.

Much of my work was making my own coatings and testing them at EK. For years, working in a darkroom 8 hours / day ruined photography at home in my darkroom. I would bring home 'homework' to do in the darkroom here. I would make a coating at work and sometimes test it here using a normal and an experimental process. I guess my job was fun. Like a banker bringing home money to count. Fun, but it was someone elses money after all.

I have made digital separations, but have not used them for any practical purpose, as I have been fully tied up with emulsion making in my darkroom for about 2 years. My Jobo is in mothballs. In the slide show of me making and coating emulsions, you see the Jobo in the background. I use it to hold sheets of coated film or paper for inspection before hanging to dry.

PE

pe

thanx for your extensive reply

if it does not open up an old wound-

what was it about the transfer prcess that got on your last nerves?

was it registration issues? transfer rates and timeings? the smell?

sorry if that is all best kept in the past but if you with all your expertese don't like something like that i get a 'danger will robinson danger' warning in the back of whats left of my dazed and confused mind

vaya con dios

 

[Photo Engineer]

It was the expense and time needed to produce a simple photograph.

After working 8 hours in a photo lab at EK, coming home and working all night to make the separation negatives, doing density measurements, making highlight and color masks, and then the next night making the mats, and then the third night making the prints.........

Well, 3 days + just to turn out one print, and if anything gets scratched or you get dust.... Start over.

And, that was just to do 8x10. To make larger prints, the cost went up pretty fast. Matrix and Pan Matrix film was not inexpensive, even working for Kodak.

I can turn out 24 - 48 8x10 RA prints / night with my Jobo and they are all spot on. And, since I worked on color paper I enjoyed it and became familar with it more easily. Not that I really do that, but I have in a pinch.

PE

 

[sanking]

It was the expense and time needed to produce a simple photograph.

After working 8 hours in a photo lab at EK, coming home and working all night to make the separation negatives, doing density measurements, making highlight and color masks, and then the next night making the mats, and then the third night making the prints.........

Well, 3 days + just to turn out one print, and if anything gets scratched or you get dust.... Start over.

And, that was just to do 8x10. To make larger prints, the cost went up pretty fast. Matrix and Pan Matrix film was not inexpensive, even working for Kodak.

I can turn out 24 - 48 8x10 RA prints / night with my Jobo and they are all spot on. And, since I worked on color paper I enjoyed it and became familar with it more easily. Not that I really do that, but I have in a pinch.

PE

And the dye transfer process replaced color carbon and carbro for commercial work because it took less time and effort to make a print. And because there was greater control of tonal and color values was greater.

Sandy King

 

[Photo Engineer]

And Sandy, don't forget that I could make my own film and paper from scratch which was a real treat. That really killed me on DT. Too hard and expensive. It was a product and wasn't being messed with, but Ektacolor paper and Kodacolor film were being actively researched.

What fun. I just took a walk and was remembering those days fondly, especially with 9 and 23 coming down.

PE

 

[sanking]

And Sandy, don't forget that I could make my own film and paper from scratch which was a real treat. That really killed me on DT. Too hard and expensive. It was a product and wasn't being messed with, but Ektacolor paper and Kodacolor film were being actively researched.

What fun. I just took a walk and was remembering those days fondly, especially with 9 and 23 coming down.

PE

Ron,

What is 9 and 23?

BTW, I may have misunderstood Z-Man, but my point about color carbon is that it is so terribly complicated to begin with that anyone seriously thinking about becoming a master printer is not going to be concerned about whether he/she uses digital or analog negatives. One already has to make from scratch virtually everything that goes into the process, i.e. the tissue, final supports, temporary supports, etc. All of the persons I would consider master color carbon printers today are working with imagesetter negatives. I am not sure about Mac McCowan. I have known (over the phone and via email) Mac for a very long time and I believe he works with analog negatives since he prints mostly carbro, and mostly monochrome for that matter.

There was a very good color carbon printer named Renee Pauli who worked with analog separations, but he died about ten years ago before the use of digital was widely used.

I personally would like to see the working procedures for all historical color processes preserved, and that definitely includes making color carbon and carbro since these were the very first processes used to make color prints on paper. But speaking as a person who has actually done this I can tell you that it is very complicated to get it right. You mentioned that DT was difficult. Well, most people would recognize that compared to color carbon DT is a walk in the park in the spring.

Sandy King

 

[Photo Engineer]

Sandy;

In another thread there is a discussion about Kodak imploding two venerable buildings at Kodak Park, namely B9 and B23. Very sad. I was thinking about the times I spent there. I remembered that the main Kodak analog computer was located in B23 and I took a course in programming it there. That was interesting.

As for the rest, remember that we discussed color carbon and carbro last year at the Formulary. There were pigments there at the time, but we only coated the black carbon glop together. I agree, they are wonderful systems that should be preserved. I also loved the look of color bromoil transfers.

All of this is hard to learn and takes days to produce one good print. After that though, as long as you keep your DT matrices in good condition, you can crank out dozens of DT prints / night. But getting to that point requires lots of practice.

The same is true in emulsion making and coating. It is an artform in itself that has to be mastered. And it varies from location to location in very subtle ways.

PE

 

[Katharine Thayer]

A response

I've been locked out of this thread since soon after my last post a couple of days ago, because I accidentally clicked on "ignore thread" when I meant to click on "ignore user." (I don't choose to continue reading posts from persons whose purpose seems to be to insult and inflame, rather than to have a dialogue with fellow forum members). But since a few reasonable people here seem to be taking this troll seriously, I think it's only fair that I should correct some of the more inaccurate pronouncements that were hurled in my direction, and since the software is suddenly allowing me into the "post reply" page for the thread, I shall try to do so as briefly as possible, just addressing the more important points that still stick in my mind from a couple of days ago and letting the sillier ones go:

1. Repeatability: Somehow it was believed that I had said that tricolor gum, or maybe just my tricolor process in particular, is not controllable or repeatable. I never said that; it's not so.

2. Accurate colors with tricolor gum: I wrote that with tricolor gum it is easy to make a color print in which the colors are read as "accurate enough" by the mind, but difficult to make a color print in which every color in the original is exactly and precisely replicated in the print. This is even more true of cmyk reproduction than of tricolor gum, so the advice to go to cmyk printing for answers doesn't provide any useful solution. As most of us know, there are many colors that can't be printed in a standard cmyk printing, because they are "out of gamut." The cmyk reproduction is read by the mind as a fairly accurate representation of the colors in the original, but all you have to do to see how far off it is, is to put the original up next to the reproduction. When I spoke of it being difficult to reproduce every color precisely in tricolor gum, I was talking about levels of accuracy way beyond what the usual cmyk reproduction is capable of. z-man recommended following the press practice of making as many as ten negatives (and ten press runs) to achieve accurate colors. I could be wrong, but I doubt there are many publishers of books and posters who could afford all those press runs, and at any rate, in tricolor gum you could probably do it with two more colors beyond the original three (making it hexacolor gum rather than tricolor gum) if someone wanted to be that precise about replicating every color exactly accurately.

3. Confusing RGB with CMYK: This is something I've never done. Perhaps the listing on my table of contents, "How RGB channels become CMY separations when inverted" may have been misinterpreted by someone determined to misinterpret, but if a person had actually clicked on that link and followed the numbers, you would see exactly how it works. As anyone knows who has ever printed color photographs in the darkroom (or adjusted color curves in photoshop), RGB and CMY exist in a complementary relationship with each other. The more red, the less cyan and vice versa. The same with the blue-yellow continuum and the green-magenta continuum. When RGB channels are inverted, they become negatives that accurately print CMY. People don't believe that until they follow the numbers through, (or just print the separations) but it's true. But to point out that observable fact is hardly to confuse RGB with CMY.

4. Photoflood: I was treated to a hail of ridicule because I print with a photoflood bulb. z-man made a point of saying, as a way of insulting me, that he can read, but he apparently didn't read my page on why I use the photoflood. I don't use the photoflood because I'm too stupid to know any better, but because it has proved to be a very good light for printing gum. I started out with it because it was a cheap and easy light source, and I wasn't sure before starting that I was going to stick with gum, so I didn't want to invest a lot of money into startup. That was more than 20 years ago, and I still don't see any reason to use anything else.

Among the many contemptuous remarks that were made on this subject, it was said that if I would get some other light, my printing times would be more like 10-15 minutes. Why would I want printing times of 10-15 minutes, when my printing times with the photoflood are 2-5 minutes? And as for the spectrum, there's very little known about the actual spectral sensitivity of different dichromated colloid emulsions. The conventional wisdom is that their sensitivities are all the same, because it's assumed that it's the dichromate that determines the spectral sensitivity. But when the spectral sensitivity of various dichromated emulsions has actually been compared, it's been shown that they aren't the same, that the colloid itself has a significant effect on the spectral sensitivity, and that the spectral sensitivity of gum is more in the visible range than in the uv range. So for gum, it may not matter that there's not much uv from the photoflood.

At any rate, I've always believed in letting the gum decide; in other words, I prefer to let observation rather than theory (or ridicule!) drive my decisions, and the photoflood works very well for gum. I don't have a lot of the problems that many other gum printers report (dichromate stain, tonal inversions, low contrast etc) and I suspect that the reason for that may be the light source I use.

5. Pigments. It was said that I should order yellow, cyan and magenta process paints from Jerry's Art-O-Rama rather than using the more lightfast pigments that are available in good artist's lines. Daniel Smith (my art supplier) doesn't even carry such process paints, and if they did, I wouldn't buy them. Generally speaking, such process paints are made of inferior pigments and aren't lightfast, and besides, there are pigments available that are close enough to true yellow, cyan and magenta, that they serve quite well, even if they fail to satisfy the literal-minded by going by those exact names.

_______________________________________________________________
Additional thoughts in response to comments by PE (since I don't trust the system to let me reply more than once to a thread that I've clicked "ignore thread" for, I'll put all my responses here):

Yes, I agree that you have to look at the colors as well as whether the three colors produce neutral greys, but you have to start somewhere. Once you've got a neutral grey when the three colors are overlaid, then you can proceed to determining how well a combination of pigments reproduces individual colors, or color ranges. Generally, in my experience, if a combination of pigments reproduces green well, then it won't do so well with the purples, and so on, and that's why it may be necessary to introduce some secondary colors for precisely accurate color reproduction, as recommended by Bruce MacEvoy, the man I consult for expertise on pigments.

You mentioned that you were surprised at how a CMYK print with the K layer left off looks, but it shouldn't be surprising because it's a function of the separations and of the printing inks. Since, as I explained in the page I referred to earlier in this thread, the color information is altered to accommodate the black and the limitations of the printing inks, the CMY parts of a CMYK file aren't the same as a true CMY file generated by inverting the RGB file. Gum printers sometimes make this mistake, thinking that by choosing CMYK in photoshop and not using the K printer, they are getting true CMY separations, and are surprised at how wimpy and offcolor the result is. I don't know, but strongly suspect, that that's what's wrong with the tricolor gum prints on one of the links supplied way way earlier in this thread, where CMY is compared to CMYK: the CMY prints look very strange,, probably because the CMY prints aren't the result of a straightforward conversion to CMY, but are the CMY portion of (default) photoshop CMYK, which is a horse of a different color altogether.

Your point about the density required for true black is well taken.

Thanks for the opportunity to respond; as far as I know the thread is still unavailable to me so I won't be participating further, but just wanted to clear up some of the misconceptions I did see before I locked myself out of the thread.
Katharine

 

[z-man]

THANKS FOR THE MEMORIES

Sandy;

In another thread there is a discussion about Kodak imploding two venerable buildings at Kodak Park, namely B9 and B23. Very sad. I was thinking about the times I spent there. I remembered that the main Kodak analog computer was located in B23 and I took a course in programming it there. That was interesting.

As for the rest, remember that we discussed color carbon and carbro last year at the Formulary. There were pigments there at the time, but we only coated the black carbon glop together. I agree, they are wonderful systems that should be preserved. I also loved the look of color bromoil transfers.

All of this is hard to learn and takes days to produce one good print. After that though, as long as you keep your DT matrices in good condition, you can crank out dozens of DT prints / night. But getting to that point requires lots of practice.

pe-you are a great treasure to all of us here

in the 50+yrs i have been paying income tax on the money i earned as an artist(yeah i started paying when i was 12) i also have seen to much of what was good go down the pipe-but we still have our memories to gladen our hearts

i don't know why every one thinks it is necessary to totaly roll your own in the carbon process tho

the co who started it all autochrome still makes tissue-only one color tho

i prefer the "ultrastable" system-it is quick, repeatable and gives completely photo realistic 4/c if you use it as designed-i of course have never left it at that as soon as i have mastered any system

pe-thanks for your detailed answers to my questions-i never did the actual dt myself-only watched out of curiousity-to picky a process for my lazy self-but you actually stuck it out and that is a testiment to your own self-respect

you want a picky/cranky/tedious process?-try makeing a chromalin-pe i know you have seen the finished product-any comments on that one?

vaya con dios

 

[Photo Engineer]

Z-man; I've never heard of chromalin or if I have I've forgotten. Thanks for your comments. Keep up the good work.

Katharine; It would be straightforward to determine spectral sensitivities of any light sensitive system should you wish to devote the time to it. A simple monochromator with a step wedge will do the job. I have posted several samples here on APUG.

As for my being surprised that you refer to, that refers to the fact that some systems need CMYK and others only need CMY and it is not obvious to a casual observer or inexperienced person which systems or dyes do and which do not. It is also not obvious why these differences exist. It took some training and experimentation for me to understand it lo these many years ago.

And, as for green vs purple color reproduction, this is not always the case. It is a function of color masking (or lack thereof) which can lead to the problem due to the dyes chosen. I have seen this as well, but simple substitution of the dyes has usually solved the problem. OTOH, it may be as simple as the peak absorption of the dye or the half bandwidth of the dye being wrong for the print material, but the effort to fix the problem can be done either by measurement (which I did) or by trial and error which is tedious.

Of course, I had the advantage of one of the world's largest libraries of dye forming materials to choose from along with the curves they produce and the math models with which to work to make the selection.

I may have prints here that illustrate this. We did a coating series with different dye formers to establish just about what you describe, and I remember bringing several of the prints home when the project was finished. If I find them and can scan them in with good results, I'll post them.

PE

 

[sanking]

\
i don't know why every one thinks it is necessary to totaly roll your own in the carbon process tho

the co who started it all autochrome still makes tissue-only one color tho

i prefer the "ultrastable" system-it is quick, repeatable and gives completely photo realistic 4/c if you use it as designed-i of course have never left it at that as soon as i have mastered any system

The only carbon tissue made by Autotype is the blood-red color intended for photogravure. If you like the color, ok, but I personally find that color very unappealing.

Ultrastable ceased manufacture of color carbon tissue several years ago.

At this time there is no production anywhere in the world of color carbon tissue. That may change soon as B&S has announced they plan to make the material. But not available as of now.

Sandy

 

[z-man]

THANKS FOR THE HEADS UP RE ULTR. . .

The only carbon tissue made by Autotype is the blood-red color intended for photogravure. If you like the color, ok, but I personally find that color very unappealing.

Ultrastable ceased manufacture of color carbon tissue several years ago.

At this time there is no production anywhere in the world of color carbon tissue. That may change soon as B&S has announced they plan to make the material. But not available as of now.

Sandy

SANDY-

personal medical crisis after crisis for the past 3 yrs has put me totally out of the loop

i was just looking for the last paper work so i could re-up on ultra --silly me-like the sticker shock when my refrigerator came up empty re 4x5 polariod and i went to b&h to get a few boxes-almost had heart attack #3

silverprint can't or won't ship the autochrome tissue they stock out side of the eu but i have workarounds if i want some-as you say the color as supplyed is not for everyone but i can modify it somewhat

my main concern these days are the hazmat issues of pigments-the massive neuro damage i have has been characterized , by a few world class nuerologists, as heavy metal and other non-organic poisoning-maybe swimming in artists materials and photo chemicals since the age of 7 is the cause-the drs are still debating this

because of this i will start using the lascaux "sirious primary system" -i can get other cymk water color pigments but the toxicity issues are not as transparent(ha ha)

am currently overprinting tea stained cyano with an emulsion colored with beet juice-the resulting 3/c is of course surreal

my attempts to put on top a yelo pigmented with tumeric have not yet been as happy as i want

any input on this 'green' issue would be of great help

PE- will tell you about Dupont's chromolin process another time-gotta eat more morphine right now

vaya con dios

 

[sanking]

SANDY-

personal medical crisis after crisis for the past 3 yrs has put me totally out of the loop

i was just looking for the last paper work so i could re-up on ultra --silly me-like the sticker shock when my refrigerator came up empty re 4x5 polariod and i went to b&h to get a few boxes-almost had heart attack #3

Hi Z-Man,

I wish you well in recovering from what hopefully is a "temporary medical crisis."

Fortunately my state is still such that a good dose (or three-six) of reposado Tequila numbs the sense enough to carry on.

My very best to you,

Sandy

 

[z-man]

dupont cromolins

Z-man; I've never heard of chromalin or if I have I've forgotten. Thanks for your comments. Keep up the good work.

PE

pe-
chromolins are(were?) the best color break that could be made at the time. dupont updated the dusting on process with modern technology. a sticky emulsion would be burned with a color sep and then a very pure hue powder pigment would be dusted on, a layer of the unpigmented emulsion would be burnished down and then each each sep would be burned untill the color break was complete and a final layer of the emulsion-it is in a film form-would be put on to cover it and then given a burn without a neg/or/pos and no dust on of pigment, to seal the whole composit and give an even glossy surface

if the break was a simple 4/c of a 35 mm chrome the result , with a high # screen, was breath taking and, sometimes , at lets say 24x36, it would be better looking than the original, and unless you used a 10 power loupe , the screen ruling was lost in the mix. it looked someting like a ciba , and with the benefits of all the tonal compression done during the separation process the contrast was completely tamed- you had a color print that looked like the chrome

the purpose was to get a preview of a high count screen on best quality coated stock coming out of a sheet fed-a pre press proof of a press proof for coffee table books etc

the room was dedicated, sealed, and forced ventilation and personal ventilators and masks like a scuba divers were necessary. the tech did nothing else and the learning curve was considerable

i was getting my certification for 4/c stripping and the school was at a high cost prep house-i talked the tech into getting me started, but my tuition was payed for by the feds
and the stripping , plate making, camera, drum scan and vacume frame classes were all that could be billed-the cost of a chromolin was more than a dt if i remember right and i ran out of funds for the chromolin materials-sound familiar?

i learmed enuf to know that i had to home brew an equivelent-but never was able to get all the way to 4/c- i did confirm that i could work with continous tone separations and my training at a culinary arts high school gave me the ability to work with sugar without burning myself to death-the sugar chefs courses were mostly women when i was in that school so of course i hung around them like the dog i naturally was and obsorbed the techmiques while other things were on my mind

sandy-the medicinal benefits of mescal and the intoxication from the aroma of the fields even before the 'pinas' are harvested are blessings of the creator in my opinon- inshAllah i may have the opurtunity to thank you for the blessings of your good will-i told gadjet i would celebrate his birthday, and i owe a childhood friend transplanted to nc a visit- might get a chance to buy you a round

vaya con dios

 

[JohnLuis]

I would like to try Dye Transfer prints

 

[jim10219]

I would like to try Dye Transfer prints

Who wouldn't?! But since they don't make the stuff to do them, you have to make it all yourself which is extremely difficult and expensive and requires a bunch of specialized tools. Check out this link for some information on how: Http://Dyetransfer.org

I had the opportunity to see some recently at the local art museum as part of the traveling Ansel Adams and Photographers of the West exhibit. They also had some cibachromes, both of which made me sad to see how beautiful they were knowing I would never get to try one myself.

 

[MattKing]

After almost 12 years lying dormant, a thread wakes up ......

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

I would like to try Dye Transfer prints

I own one of Ctein's dye transfer prints. Why not try tri-colour carbon? I taught myself last year. It's not that difficult, especially if you know how to make carbon transfer prints. At the same time, I taught myself tri-colour gum. Tri-colour gum won in the end. I love the look.

 

[Bob Carnie]

I own one of Ctein's dye transfer prints. Why not try tri-colour carbon? I taught myself last year. It's not that difficult, especially if you know how to make carbon transfer prints. At the same time, I taught myself tri-colour gum. Tri-colour gum won in the end. I love the look.

I agree with Andrew tri colour gum is fantastic and I feel with tri gum over palladium the possibilities are endless.