Alert about a possible problem batch of Xtol

mshchem · Nov 21, 2019

Just remember this is ALARIS not the still world class technology company Eastman Kodak. The UK pension fund inherited the paper and chemistry business. KA closed the Harrow manufacturing site in England. So now KA is having the color negative papers and chemistry made by others. (The color chemistry seems to be made by KA in China)

Important to me that we don't confuse Eastman Kodak with Kodak Alaris.

pentaxuser · Nov 21, 2019

Thanks mshchem So any problems with Kodak chemistry would appear to be firmly at the door of KA and that's fine. How do you intend to help KA sort out the problem? Do I take it that you will try the Xtol first . Will you clip test and then depending on the result decide whether to contact KA. It sounds as if you regard it as your responsibility to do this.

I was simply trying to find a buyer of the affected batch to ascertain if such a person had contacted KA or intended to contact KA as a result

Am I alone in being interested to see what KA's policy actually is now that it has identified a problem from some users. The announcement simply tells me that KA will be interested to hear from others who also have a problem but not what KA will do for those users

pentaxuser

mshchem · Nov 21, 2019

I sent an email to KA. No reply as yet. I don't know what good it is to test it. The A side is definitely weird. I may ask BH for replacement. I was buying a new package to test. But it sounds like I need to wait a bit longer. Meanwhile, I have enough stock to last a couple years .

Christiaan Phleger · Nov 21, 2019

My suggestion is to don't waste the water in mixing it up and my guess is that we'll know at some point about filing for warranty replacements.

GarageBoy · Nov 22, 2019

Can whoever is doing the ECN2 chems for EK be the same that does KA? EK customers would never stand for this

warden · Nov 22, 2019

Is there a way to make this thread a "sticky" so more people see it on Photrio? It might save a forum participant from ruining important negatives.

pentaxuser · Nov 22, 2019

GarageBoy said:
Can whoever is doing the ECN2 chems for EK be the same that does KA? EK customers would never stand for this

It is a good question. I admit to still not understanding what KA has control over and what remains an EK territory. If it is KA then presumably it dictates to the chemical contractor(s) what it/they will continue to produce in the current range of chemicals? Is it KA that is solely responsible for overseeing the specs for the new Xtol and all the other chemicals. Presumably KA has a workforce that carries out this work and this is a workforce that is employed solely by KA? And yet there has to be an EK input doesn't there as otherwise if EK decides on a new slide film as it has but KA decides against the production of suitable chemicals for such a film then this becomes a KA sword of Damocles hanging over EK over which sword KA has sole control?

So was it EK for instance that solely determined that it would renew P3200 and start a new slide film. Do we need Henning's knowledge here to explain it in easy to understand A, B and C terms

I'd welcome this or indeed the knowledge of anyone else who has genuine access to the facts of the EK:KA relationship as set out in law

Thanks

pentaxuser

mshchem · Nov 22, 2019

jawarden said:
Is there a way to make this thread a "sticky" so more people see it on Photrio? It might save a forum participant from ruining important negatives.

There must be a stop sale in effect, B&H changed the listing to back ordered when KA broke the news.

MattKing · Nov 22, 2019

I only have information about the new Ektachrome.
Kodak Alaris was actively interested in getting back into the market with an E6 still film.
Eastman Kodak saw the market for the cine films.
The two sets of interests made it possible.
As did the fact that there continued to be in existence non-Kodak labs and chemicals that could be used to process the films.
Eastman Kodak has no role with respect to anything to do with still film chemicals - that is entirely Kodak Alaris.
And with respect to the problem that brought rise to this thread, it makes absolutely no sense to equate in any way the conditions of supply and packaging of ECN chemicals - which are commercial and industrial and generally high volume only - with the very different problems associated with supply and packaging of items intended for retail sales in relatively small quantities to end users of varying competencies and experience, through retailers who are also of varying competencies and experiences.

mshchem · Nov 22, 2019

pentaxuser said:
It is a good question. I admit to still not understanding what KA has control over and what remains an EK territory. If it is KA then presumably it dictates to the chemical contractor(s) what it/they will continue to produce in the current range of chemicals? Is it KA that is solely responsible for overseeing the specs for the new Xtol and all the other chemicals. Presumably KA has a workforce that carries out this work and this is a workforce that is employed solely by KA? And yet there has to be an EK input doesn't there as otherwise if EK decides on a new slide film as it has but KA decides against the production of suitable chemicals for such a film then this becomes a KA sword of Damocles hanging over EK over which sword KA has sole control?

So was it EK for instance that solely determined that it would renew P3200 and start a new slide film. Do we need Henning's knowledge here to explain it in easy to understand A, B and C terms

I'd welcome this or indeed the knowledge of anyone else who has genuine access to the facts of the EK:KA relationship as set out in law

Thanks

pentaxuser

EK doesn't have anything to do with KA chemistry or paper. Alaris has outsourced everything since closing Harrow. See this info, there's a link to KA annual report.

https://www.insideimaging.com.au/2019/kodak-alaris-buyer-steps-away-at-11th-hour/

As you can see Alaris is failing at finding a buyer for the film, paper and chemistry division. It was supposed to be sold by now.

We will be lucky if we can keep the existing products.

pentaxuser · Nov 22, 2019

Thanks Matt That's helpful info In my case there is a definite confusion as to what the responsibilities of EK and KA are and how precisely the two interact I will stick my neck out and say I may not be on my own here. If we all know and accept what this relationship is it might stop any Kodak issue from becoming an EK v KA argument especially if there is any chance of it deteriorating into a Good Guy v Bad Guy discussion. As I said in another thread our first responsibility as members of this forum is to seek the truth and solutions to problems that affect us as consumers of everything under the broad banner of "Film "

pentaxuser

pentaxuser · Nov 22, 2019

mshchem said:
EK doesn't have anything to do with KA chemistry or paper. Alaris has outsourced everything since closing Harrow. See this info, there's a link to KA annual report.

https://www.insideimaging.com.au/2019/kodak-alaris-buyer-steps-away-at-11th-hour/

As you can see Alaris is failing at finding a buyer for the film, paper and chemistry division. It was supposed to be sold by now.

We will be lucky if we can keep the existing products.

Thanks. Maybe I have misunderstood the "good news" thread from Henning Serger. I thought that when he mentioned a revival in Kodaks fortunes this included the still film and processing part. From what you are saying this would seem to be unlikely. Indeed the wrong moves by KA could kill the still film part of EK by the sound of things. In fact unless KA finds a buyer it looks as if Kodak as most still film users know it will go undern

So KA owns and controls the EK part of the still film it produces and is seeking a buyer If it were to find a buyer is this a separate part of the film making machinery such that if EK is doing better in the cinema film side of the business then this part could still carry on even if the still film, paper and chemicals were to go bust?

Things sound much worse than I had imagined. I wonder if the rest of the Kodak still film users here on Photrio realise how bad things are given what I can only describe as a relatively "good news" thread by Henning Serger. I certainly didn't

It may not be Good Night America and Good Luck but rather we are closer to Good Night Kodak and Good Luck than is healthy

pentaxuser - a long time Xtol user who may now have to look elsewhere

mshchem · Nov 22, 2019

pentaxuser said:
Thanks. Maybe I have misunderstood the "good news" thread from Henning Serger. I thought that when he mentioned a revival in Kodaks fortunes this included the still film and processing part. From what you are saying this would seem to be unlikely. Indeed the wrong moves by KA could kill the still film part of EK by the sound of things. In fact unless KA finds a buyer it looks as if Kodak as most still film users know it will go undern

So KA owns and controls the EK part of the still film it produces and is seeking a buyer If it were to find a buyer is this a separate part of the film making machinery such that if EK is doing better in the cinema film side of the business then this part could still carry on even if the still film, paper and chemicals were to go bust?

Things sound much worse than I had imagined. I wonder if the rest of the Kodak still film users here on Photrio realise how bad things are given what I can only describe as a relatively "good news" thread by Henning Serger. I certainly didn't

It may not be Good Night America and Good Luck but rather we are closer to Good Night Kodak and Good Luck than is healthy

pentaxuser - a long time Xtol user who may now have to look elsewhere

First don't give up on XTOL! It will be made right.

KA doesn't make anything any longer, or own any equipment (other than a small group in Brazil ) Eastman Kodak owns all the film making equipment, part of the settlement with the UK pension fund forbids Eastman Kodak from producing Still films, photo papers, chemistry, kiosks etc. other than for sale to Alaris.
KA pays Carestream (another former Kodak division, X-Ray film) to coat the Kodak color negative paper. As to whom is producing the black and white chemistry is unknown, definitely not EK.
Fear not my friend, it will all work out.

mshchem · Nov 22, 2019

Who ever in Germany that's making the new XTOL seems to be making the powdered Kodak Fixer as well. The new catalog number, 1058304 pictured on B&H shows very nearly the same date code as the XTOL in question . If you look closely the code is 2019/08/20 8316. All,the new Kodak Alaris powdered chemistry shows "more on the way " or backordered. Also for some reason the new formula Dektol is in store pick up only at B&H. The older Dektol formulation is still available at B&H, free shipping.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod...1058304_professional_fixer_powder_packet.html

Henning Serger · Nov 23, 2019

pentaxuser said:
Thanks. Maybe I have misunderstood the "good news" thread from Henning Serger. I thought that when he mentioned a revival in Kodaks fortunes this included the still film and processing part.

Please read attentively and accurately. I have described the situation of current photo film demand at Kodak (strong increase) and their reaction to it (investing in additional production capacities). And yes, that is indeed very good news for all of us.

pentaxuser said:
So KA owns and controls the EK part of the still film it produces .............

No. It was explained here on photrio hundreds of times again and again what is made by Eastman Kodak in Rochester and what is the business of Kodak Alaris. But you are again mixing things up.
Once again: Eastman Kodak is owning all the production machinery and is producing all the films, including all photo films. Kodak Alaris has the distribution rights for Kodak Photo films and is distributing them worldwide and owns the Kodak paper and photo film chemistry business. And the demand increase is of course good for both of them.

pentaxuser said:
pentaxuser - a long time Xtol user who may now have to look elsewhere

There is really no need for this "sky is falling" mood, only because of one production batch going wrong. That is happening in industrial production (no matter what field and product) again and again. Human beings are working in factories, and sometimes they make mistakes. Such is life.

I have talked to Kodak Alaris, and they told me the bad batch was shipped to the US market. The other markets are not affected. So for you in the UK, and me in Germany:
Don't worry, be happy and continue using XTOL if you like it.

Best regards,
Henning

peter k. · Nov 23, 2019

Henning Serger said:
I have talked to Kodak Alaris, and they told me the bad batch was shipped to the US market.

Question: Hmmm ... so they are aware that there is a problem, ... and admit it???
If so that's very good news, and will contact B&H on what is to be done.

Mackinaw · Nov 23, 2019

peter k. said:
Question: Hmmm ... so they are aware that there is a problem, ... and admit it???
If so that's very good news, and will contact B&H on what is to be done.

A few days ago they had an announcement on FB and Instagram. If you have some Xtol that is suspect, contact Kodak for a replacement.

Jim B.

peter k. · Nov 23, 2019

Thank you,,, being an old 'art we have never gotten into FB and all the rest.
Buts its a modern whorl and if that's the way they want to be official about it, then that's the way it is!
Do you have a specific Kodak contact number for this issue? Hopefully we would rather do all this via e-mail.

removedacct1 · Nov 23, 2019

peter k. said:
Thank you,,, being an old 'art we have never gotten into FB and all the rest.
Buts its a modern whorl and if that's the way they want to be official about it, then that's the way it is!
Do you have a specific Kodak contact number for this issue? Hopefully we would rather do all this via e-mail.

Kodak Tweeted an email address to contact them about seeking replacement Xtol: ProPaperChem@kodakalaris.com

However, I emailed them with a photo of my package of that batch of Xtol and have yet to receive a response.

Sal Santamaura · Nov 23, 2019

mshchem said:
...part of the settlement with the UK pension fund forbids Eastman Kodak from producing Still films, photo papers, chemistry, kiosks etc. other than for sale to Alaris...

How did you estabish that? As best I can determine, no details of the Eastman Kodak / Kodak Alaris agreement have been made public. And I inquired directly with both companies at the time of the bankruptcy settlement. Neither would disclose anything.

It's entirely possible that Eastman Kodak is contractually able to produce all the things you list for sale to entities other than Kodak Alaris, labeled under those other entities' brands. It's also possible that Kodak Alaris is contractually able to source still films from manufacturers other than Eastman Kodak. Barring someone suddenly willing to violate a non-disclosure agreement, we simply don't know.

pentaxuser · Nov 23, 2019

Henning "the sky falling in" you mention rightly reflects what I interpreted mshchem to have said in his post and I was merely contrasting what he had presented as fact in #35 which sounded extremely gloomy. I draw your attention specifically to his sentence about KA failing to find a buyer for the film paper and chemistry division and stating "we will be lucky if we can keep all the existing products"

mshchem may be overly pessimistic but unless he is wrong about KA being for sale (is he?) then I can't be the only member here who wonders how long KA have left to find a buyer and if they find one that then opens up a new era in the film paper and chemistry division under new ownership. An element of future uncertainty by definition.

It may be of course that the improving fortunes of EK/KA will make the sale unnecessary and if so do you know when KA is likely to make an announcement on its future either voluntarily or as a requirement under company law.

To use a British expression: It would seem that everything in the garden is not rosy with KA irrespective of this problem with Xtol

pentaxuser

Christiaan Phleger · Nov 23, 2019

Ha! Yeah sure, Xtol is fine. (sarcasm).
I have stated quite clearly how this most recent Packaging Not Chemical Production problem with Xtol just continues to re-enforce the negative stereotypes surrounding a great product. KA will have to do more to re assure the consumers of Xtol that the packaging failures have been solved than twitter or Facebook posts. Nobody enjoys the loss of negatives and Once Bitten Twice Shy or in this case Third Time Its Fixed! We mean it Trust Us... "Kodak" needs to be clear as to Why it occurred, how they fixed it and how to tell if Xtol should not be mixed so the consumers don't get burned, not even once.

pentaxuser · Nov 23, 2019

Nice to know from Henning that Xtol shipped to the U.K. is OK, but this has to come from Henning and is not part of any KA announcement. It appears to me that KA's reaction to the problem smacks of taking its eye off the ball in the U.S.

If it's a batch sent to the U.S. then if the chemistry maker's QC is any good it should have a good idea of how many packets are affected and if, as appears to be the case from the Twitter notice, KA discovered the problem not from the chemistry maker but from affected users then it seems to me that unless the chemistry maker can give good evidence now of how many packets are likely to be affected then it has to announce that all users of this batch number need to send the Xtol back and they will get an exchange packet. At the very least if there is chance that some packets within this batch have escaped being affected then it has to advise customers to clip test and give advice of how this can be done.

KA could stick to its current announcement which I find as a solution raises more questions than answers but unfortunately any sign of "penny pinching" or not being prepared to demonstrate a 100% concern for the consumer can lose customers and every analysis I have seen concludes that losing a customer and getting that customer back is more expensive than exercising generosity in the face of a problem in the first place

pentaxuser

mshchem · Nov 23, 2019

I mixed up my New XTOL the A side has the 2019/08/09 8317, B side is 2019/08/09 8318 exactly what Kodak Alaris posted. I shot a roll of TMY 2, Nikon F5, 5 frames / second of my nitwit cat Gus, sitting in a shaft of sunlight. In the darkroom I took scissors and cut the film in half. I processed 1 half in new 1 half in old XTOL. 20°C Jobo CPP3 6.5 minutes. I see absolutely no difference. I will attempt to attach a photo. This is on a fluorescent light table. The modified A side with zero dust is a joy to work with. B side, still dusty. Both packages were within a gram of the weight on the package using a German made Sartorius electronic balance. This is nice stuff. Package was sealed etc. I'm not doubting other reports only showing what I have. Picture of negatives shot with Samsung cell phone.

mshchem · Nov 23, 2019

In case it's not clear the old strip is the one not marked new.

Alert about a possible problem batch of Xtol

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