Air Bubbles during Development - Observations

[Tom Stanworth]

I have been blighted by small spherical areas of reduced density on my negs here and there since living in Afghanistan and have been at a loss to explain why these air bubbles have only become an issue now. Comments made by other members led to a small experiment:

I took two bottles, filling one with tap water at slow speed and the other was factory filled with cheap drinking (filtered bore-hole) water.

I left the tap water to stand for about 4 hrs and noted tiny weeny bubbles forming on the edge of the bottle. However, these were smaller than the marks on my film in all cases. BUT, when I banged the bottle on the counter to simulate sharp raps to dislodge air bubbles/bells, the smaller bubbled shot up and appeared to form larger bubbles of about 1-2mm which then stuck to the side of the bottle in place of the smaller ones. These were the exact same size as teh marks on the film. Banging the bottled water brought up only large bubbles which broke the surface and did not adhere to the sides.

Solution? Bottled water for teh developer or storing tap water in bottles prior to use, leavig to stand and then banging until the bubbles are gone.

 

[Ian Grant]

There was a similar thread a few weeks ago, actually about air bubbles in Pyrocat. I did some tests and photographed(there was a url link here which no longer exists).

It's worth reading the whole thread. It does seem to be a water problem rather than a specific developer issue, but some developers may cope better with different water types. The bottled water where I live is only marginally better than the tap water.

Ian

 

[Tom Stanworth]

I found Ilfosol impossible here and I have never had issues before.

I also note that very shiny backed films such as acros, delta, neopan 400, pan-F have mnore issues.

 

[Tom Stanworth]

I am wondering if temperature has a bearing too. I tend to process at about 21-22 degs C here, but use to be about 19-20 in the UK. Also, in my old house in the UK a filled glass would not develop little bubbles on the sides - the water was devoid of air I guess.

The bubbles on that link correspond perfectly to the problems I have mainly around the margins but sometimes in the middle of film (the ones near the edges are larger). I think that tiny bubbles crash into one another at the edges of the spirals forming these larger bubbles you have illustrated. I am going to try bottled water next (which here is nice and gas free - very dead) and see if it helps. such a huge pain in the ass. Strangely I have more issues with 120 than 35mm, although thankfully I often crop the very top/bottom of 6x7....but have lost a fair few negs these darned bubbles.

 

[fschifano]

Consider boiling the tap water and setting it aside to cool if that's possible. Boiling will drive out all the gasses and eliminate the bubble problem. Or you could just let it sit in an open container for a day or so.

 

[Tom Stanworth]

I can't really boil it, but leaving it in a container and banging to release the bubbles might work nicely. The bottle I tried this on was dead yesterday and remains dead now, so I am going to test with this and see what happens.

I wont go down the wetting agent route as this screws up the spirals by making them sticky and turning loading into a nightmare. I really hope this is cracked because sods law always dictates that the best negs will get the most bubbles.....

 

[formPhotography]

I've had a similar problem that started when I changed from "twirling" for agitation to inversion. It was solved when I changed back, and I've had no problems in hundreds of films since.

 

[Uhner]

I’ve had problems with air bubbles on and off for some time. I solved the problem by changing from Paterson reels to stainless steel ones when developing 120 film. I have not had any trouble with my Paterson reels when developing 135 film.

 

[Neal]

Dear Tom,

Your experiments explain why I never (at least since my present methods were adopted about 10 years ago) have problems with air bells. I always use distilled water that sits more than long enough for the excess air to come out of solution (by accident, not design). As it is handy and plentiful, I use it for mixing all chemicals. Wash water is tap water that sits in jugs at room temperature and I admit to tapping them now and then just to watch the bubbles. Very illuminating.

Neal Wydra

 

[Saganich]

Dump the plastic reels. Plastic holds a charge which will hold bubbles like a cage in the reels

 

[Tom Stanworth]

static makes sense - it is so darned dry here. I am reluctant to change to steel reels as I am so used to them and have never had problems before. I developed two test rolls (for other purposes) with the bottled and 'stood and banged' water and will report back. Also done the Neopan 400 in FX-39 1+9 mixed 50-50 with Xtol 1+1 to see how that turns out too!

If I cannot beat the bubbles, I might have to go to steel eventually....

 

[Marc .]

Dump the plastic reels. Plastic holds a charge which will hold bubbles like a cage in the reels

Hello,

Can you explain how static will remain on the plastic reel once dumped in the developer ?

Marc

 

[Kirk Keyes]

Also, in my old house in the UK a filled glass would not develop little bubbles on the sides - the water was devoid of air I guess.

No, it means that the water in your old UK house was not saturated with air so it did not form little bubbles on the sides of the glass.

This probably means the water you were getting from the tap there was from an environment that did not have a lot of interaction between the water supply and air - a calm pool perhaps, but certainly not a babbling mountain brook. Or it means that the water cooled down in temperature from where it was obtained before it reached your tap so any dissolved air remained in solution.

But it most likely was not devoid of air.

 

[Ian Grant]

Tom's water is probably like mine in Turkey, shipped in tankers at this time of year from reservoirs, or pumped long distances. Boiling removes dissolved gases but energy prices are far far higher than in the US, and higher than European prices so it's not an economical proposition.

My own tests showed a very small amount of wetting agent was sufficient to stop the problem, but I emphasise small because to much causes foaming which is just as bad.

Ian

 

[Marco Buonocore]

Tom's water is probably like mine in Turkey, shipped in tankers at this time of year from reservoirs, or pumped long distances. Boiling removes dissolved gases but energy prices are far far higher than in the US, and higher than European prices so it's not an economical proposition.

My own tests showed a very small amount of wetting agent was sufficient to stop the problem, but I emphasise small because to much causes foaming which is just as bad.

Ian

Ian,

What sort of volume are you talking about with the wetting agent? 1ml in 1000ml of developer? Less? I'd like to give it a try.

I appreciate the pictures you took of the actual bubbles in the reels. Those *are* the culprits. It's satisfying to have them identified!

Thanks,

 

[Ian Grant]

Marco, I'm talking 2-5 drops not 1ml per litre, but then my wetting agent is quite concentrated.

Ian

 

[DaveOttawa]

Hello,

Can you explain how static will remain on the plastic reel once dumped in the developer ?

Marc

I'd love to hear about that as well Seriously static obviously has nothing to do with this since the probelm is occurring in a conductive medium (the developer solution). As for reels that get sticky if you use wetting agent, the solution is simple, just give them a quick rinse after use.

 

[Ian Grant]

It does, you should see gold plate out onto plastics in tick layers

Ian

 

[Marc .]

It does, you should see gold plate out onto plastics in tick layers

Ian

So, please, can you also write an article on gold recovery in addition to the one you are about to write on silver recovery !!!

Marc

 

[Paul Verizzo]

Boiling removes dissolved gases but energy prices are far far higher than in the US, and higher than European prices so it's not an economical proposition.
Ian

OK, but how much could boilng a gallon of water for a couple of minutes cost? A dime? Still a very minor component of the whole photographic process after spending hundreds on hardware and consumables.

I've never had bubbles even when I've used tap water and plastic reels and stand development. A few hard raps and that's it.

 

[Tom Stanworth]

OK, but how much could boilng a gallon of water for a couple of minutes cost? A dime? Still a very minor component of the whole photographic process after spending hundreds on hardware and consumables.

I've never had bubbles even when I've used tap water and plastic reels and stand development. A few hard raps and that's it.

Neither had I...until I got here - I mean never! Now I can rap the base of the tank as hard as I like, as often as I like and I still get bubbles all over the bloody place. Interestingly I also find bubbled over the centre of one frame of 120...always in the same rough area...so I think one of my spirals might be causing them to collect in one particular frame (as well as the edges of other frames). I have segregated that spiral to see if it repeats with others.

The water that had been left to stand and 'beaten' was better, but I still got bubbles. The bottled water was best of all, but now I am going to try boiling - I have to - because I am sick of losing negs. wetting agent is not an option until I have none left because when combined with film in spirals it gums up the spirals making film loading hellish.

 

[Tom Stanworth]

Tried the boiling method and....BUBBLES GONE (with TriX). Will report back on what happens with a smoother film base such a Neopan 400.

 

[Marco Buonocore]

I'd like to report a few things that I've noticed over my last 20-30 rolls of film since I've posted.

Photo-flo in the pre soak (1 drop / 500ml) was a determent. Photo-flo in the developer (again, 1 drop / 500ml of developer) seems to sort out my problem with air bubbles. I'm now pre-soaking for 2 min with tap water (constant agitation), and then using the developer with a few drops of photo-flo. Works a treat. I was normally getting air bells with more dilute developers (HC110 G, or Rodinal 1:100) but that seems to be solved now.

Personally, I think using boiled or distilled water is a PITA, and I'm happy to have found a solution that doesn't require either.

Again, thanks to Ian Grant for posting those initial pictures - I'll keep monitoring my process, but I feel that after a dozen successful reels the problem has been addressed.

I found that using more than a drop of photo flo per 500ml created foaming, which led to *horrible* edge markings. Really horrible.

Thanks again with the help in sorting this out.

 

[Ian Grant]

Marco, since posting the photo's of the air bubbles I've been regularly using Photo-flow in my Pyrocat HD and it's eliminated the problems entirely. However as you say it's a case of a minimal addition - a drop or two per litre is sufficient, any more can cause more problems than it solves.

Ian

 

[Kirk Keyes]

MAybe you guys should try putting the photo-flow into the presoak. Let it and the water wet the film during the presoak and then dump it. Then you will have no worries about too much photo-flow in the developer.