Agfacolor CN17 -- process?

[Rolleiflexible]

I have five rolls of Agfacolor CN17
with a 1967 expiration date. Does
this film process in C-41 or does
it require special treatment? Any
suggestions as to using it would
be most appreciated.

 

[Ian Grant]

It requires Agfa's own process, I do have the formulae. It can't go near C41 as the emulsion isn't hardened for it and some it would come off the base during processing causing a major contamination issue.

If you want to try it I can copy the formulae for you.

Ian

 

[Rolleiflexible]

Ian, thanks for the offer, but I've
not attempted color processing --
I run thousands of rolls of Tri-X
through chemicals but color seems
to intimidate me, in shooting as in
processing.

Do any commercial labs still
process the film? Does the
process have a name?

Sanders

 

[Ian Grant]

Rocky Mountain Labs will do it & charge an arm & leg There's also someone in the UK, it's not difficult if you have the chemistry, I just checked & my books are in the UK, I only have the CT18 fransparency formulae here in Turkey..

It was just called the Agfacolor process, the CN17 just means Colour Negative 17°DIN, I did use Agfacolor a few times the prints are still excellent I preferred it to C22, but c41 came out soon after & that was just a whole new ball game.

Ian

 

[Domin]

If you don't want to mix the CN17 chemistry by yourself, C41 chemistry at lowered temperature will probably work if the film is still ok.

C41 chemistry is way different but most probably there is not much to lose in terms of color rendition or dye stability as this is outdated and old technology film. I think will be sufficient to check if film is usable at all.

I know of two people in Poland who do process color film in Orwo process which is if I remember correctly quite similiar. But its quite far away from you.

 

[Ian Grant]

The differences between Agfacolor and C22/C41 were quite substantial, Ron (PE) could elaborate more,but the way the dye couplers worked was quite different so using C41 chemicals at a low temperature isn't likely ti be remotely worthwhile, as the dyes won't form properly.

Anyway Sanders wants a lab who can process them.

Ian

 

[Domin]

Were talking 40 years old film. It might be as well fogged beyond any usability or lost much of sensitivity. At best it makes this film artsy and collectors item at worst.

I processed some old Orwo film in both original process and lowered temp C41 and it works. There is crossover in c41, the color rendition is peculiar but much of it goes to "properly" processed film as well.

 

[Ian Grant]

Were talking 40 years old film.

It seems like yesterday

Well not quite, it was the first serious colour negative film I used, I had been processing Ferrania transparencies and E3/4.

I guess it really depends what results you want from a film, 4 films isn't really enough to experiment. There was a thread a few months ago about processing 50's Gevaert & Orwo slide fim that was more practical because the OP had a decent amount of bulk film to experiment with.

Ian

 

[Claire Senft]

If one just wanted to play with this, I would guess that cutting off a frame and trying a standard b&w developer would give a silver image. Obviously, the first try would probably be well of the mark for time.

 

[Ian Grant]

While searching for something else I found this lab, they process CN17

 

[wogster]

While searching for something else I found this lab, they process CN17

I just remembered, there is a place in Saskatchewan, that might be able to deal with this, now where did I put..... ah here it is:

Dead Link Removed

One of the issues is that Agfa hasn't made a CN17 process film in many years, so as with any long expired film, it's a gamble to get anything, if the film is already exposed then you might want to get one of these specialized labs to work their magic, if it's not exposed:

Find an old film camera that doesn't work so well anymore, put in a nice display case with several of these rolls still sealed in the boxes if you have them, and one cassette with the leader sticking out.....

 

[Ken Edwards]

Agfacolor negative films made prior to the introduction off the Optima and Ultra series that could be processed in C41, were processed in a color developer which used potassium carbonate to buffer it around pH 11.0. This is higher than the pH of C41 developer, which is around 10. Also, the developing agent in C41 is based on a diaminotoluene molecule, whereas the Agfa developing agent is based on a diamino benzene molecule. The diaminotoluene-based molecule shifts the peak wavelengths of the dyes to a somewhat longer wavelength and developer activity is increased. So, if I was stuck with tweaking a C41 kit off the shelf and I had a pH meter, I would raise the developer pH to 11 and attempt processing for 5 to 6 minutes in the resulting developer, at 68F.

 

[foc]

I have never tried processing Agfa CN17 or CNS films in C41 as I know the emulsion will melt, but I have read about processing in C41 at 20C and getting good results.
Here are some details and samples from flickr
https://www.flickr.com/groups/fossilised_film/discuss/72157632280252220/

 

[Captain Mainwaring]

I am most dreadfully sorry to barge in like this, reanimating an old topic with my first comment here ever; I hope the breach of netiquette isn't too grave. I've only just registered and am still trying to get the hang of this place. Will flesh out my profile etc. In the meantime, I have a most poignant question. I have a bunch of expired CNS Agfacolor 120 films (about eighty boxes). I have done my research, and I like the results of developing CNS in C41 chemistry at 20 degrees centigrade—I mean, if people sell films like Yodica these days, surely the strangeness of the colours will add charm to the picture if it isn't accurate representation that one's after, but I digress.

There aren't that many people who've done it, apparently, but everybody's been using the classical developer + blix + stabilizer sequence. I have a bag of CineStil two-bath C41 developer. Any pointers on how I'd have to modify the 50-minute-of-developing-followed-by-8-minutes-of-blix-and-one-minute-of-stabiliser sequence if the blix and the stabiliser are the same bath? I realise there's only one way to find out, which is by trying, but, perhaps, someone already has and might share their experience or are simply know far more about the specifics of the process than me (wouldn't be hard)?

Otherwise, if I try developing it in b/w chemistry, what b/w film would be likely to have a development time similar to that of Agfacolor CNS 100?

Any input would be greatly appreciated.

 

[koraks]

if the blix and the stabiliser are the same bath?

They cannot be, technically. They are separate kinds of baths that cannot be combined from a theoretical perspective. A process without a stabilizer is just that - one without a stabilizer. So if there's only a dev and a blix, there's just no stabilizer. You could add a stabilizer step yourself by using a dilute formalin solution with a little surfactant added to it as the final bath (after washing, as the final wet step, just before drying the film).

Edit, well, theoretically you could add some formalin to the blix by means of a combined blix/stabilizer, but this is not done in any of the C41 kits I know. Combining a stabilizer in one of the other process steps is more common in E6 chemistry. However, my suggestion above to add a DIY stabilizer step still holds true.

 

[foc]

To my knowledge, the Cinestill C41 two bath kit is just developer and bleach/fix. You will have to use your own final rinse, which is very easy to do.
The B&W developing is fairly straightforward for your CNS films. Just be carefull as sometimes the backing paper can stick to the film. It's ok if it's on the base side (shiny side) but can cause development problems if on the emulsion side. BUT does it matter, these films are at least 40+ years old. Agfa changed from CNS to C41 in the late 1970s.
Give the Cinestill kit a go at the 20C (at the standard C41 38C the emulsion will melt off the film). After the bleach/fix just wash the film as normal and then add a drop of wetting agent at the end and hang to dry. The emulsions on these films are very soft when wet so be careful.
If you get any results will you post them here please? I would love to see them.

 

[Captain Mainwaring]

To my knowledge, the Cinestill C41 two bath kit is just developer and bleach/fix. You will have to use your own final rinse, which is very easy to do.
The B&W developing is fairly straightforward for your CNS films. Just be carefull as sometimes the backing paper can stick to the film. It's ok if it's on the base side (shiny side) but can cause development problems if on the emulsion side. BUT does it matter, these films are at least 40+ years old. Agfa changed from CNS to C41 in the late 1970s.
Give the Cinestill kit a go at the 20C (at the standard C41 38C the emulsion will melt off the film). After the bleach/fix just wash the film as normal and then add a drop of wetting agent at the end and hang to dry. The emulsions on these films are very soft when wet so be careful.
If you get any results will you post them here please? I would love to see them.

Oh, I will. Just ordered some wetting agent from Fotoimpex, but it'll take a while to get here. I've developed one of them in leftover Perceptol last night, and, judging by how the negatives look, I must have blown it. Will get to the scanning now.

As for CineStill kit, I'll shoot enough film for the whole kit first, and then process it all over the course of—a few days to a week, I guess. If I end up with anything to show for it, and if nobody minds me reanimating an ancient thread again, I'll be delighted to share my results—hopefully not as a cautionary tale

 

[Murray Kelly]

I have the 1975 BJP yearbook formulae for Agfa CNS if anyone wants it.Diethyl p-phenylenediamine may be a problem.

 

[Captain Mainwaring]

They cannot be, technically. They are separate kinds of baths that cannot be combined from a theoretical perspective. A process without a stabilizer is just that - one without a stabilizer. So if there's only a dev and a blix, there's just no stabilizer. You could add a stabilizer step yourself by using a dilute formalin solution with a little surfactant added to it as the final bath (after washing, as the final wet step, just before drying the film).

Edit, well, theoretically you could add some formalin to the blix by means of a combined blix/stabilizer, but this is not done in any of the C41 kits I know. Combining a stabilizer in one of the other process steps is more common in E6 chemistry. However, my suggestion above to add a DIY stabilizer step still holds true.

Formalin, eh? Is that even legal? Hm. Well, I've still got time to mull on that while I shoot enough to get into that bag. Maybe the local embalmer might tell me something Levity aside, duly noted, thanks!

 

[Captain Mainwaring]

I have the 1975 BJP yearbook formulae for Agfa CNS if anyone wants it.Diethyl p-phenylenediamine may be a problem.

I think I've seen the formula in German. I have just about enough knowledge of chemistry to realise that mixing up something like that on my own is way beyond my capacity both skills- and equipment-wise. Thanks for the offer, though.

Basically, as I've said, I'm not expecting anything much from these films. The one I developed in B/W chemistry is totally botched, but there's enough material there for about 10 black metal or dark ambient album covers, and even a really kiboshed shot can be used in art brut. The summit of my expectations is to have a few shots with funny colours (think Dubblefilm, Kono, Hanalogital, Revolog, Yodica et al) in medium format. Also, given the fact that the 80-ASA film expired in 1982, it should technically be at 5 ASA now, although I'm planning to shoot some of the first batch at 25, some at 10, and some at 5. It will also do nicely with the Diana Pinhole Multi Operator, I think.

Sooooo… If I forego the stabilising altogether, will I have enough time to scan the bloody things in 3200 dpi/48 bit? Technically, all 80 rolls (with two more films from the same age, another Agfa and a Yugoslavian one) are part of one big experiment, and if I had to do a tradeoff between sourcing formalin locally and losing the originals in a few weeks to a month but keeping the hi-res scans, I'd go for the latter.

 

[koraks]

Formalin, eh? Is that even legal?

I'm not sure...depends on local regulations I suppose. I was lucky enough to have been gifted half a liter or so of a 10% solution. That'll last me for eons.

If I forego the stabilising altogether, will I have enough time to scan the bloody things in 3200 dpi/48 bit?

Sure, they won't go off that fast. It'll probably take a few years for them to lose any luster they may acquire in your hands.

 

[foc]

two more films from the same age, another Agfa and a Yugoslavian one)

That sounds interesting. Is the Yugoslavian film colour or B&W?

 

[Captain Mainwaring]

Colour, and also pre-C41, apparently.

 

[foc]

Colour, and also pre-C41, apparently.

View attachment 274602

I presume it is based on the Agfa CNS colour rather than Kodak C22.
I never knew that Yugoslavia made colour film.

 

[Murray Kelly]

Is Fotokemica EFKE? (FK) Adox were bought out and the machines shifted.