Agfacolor 92, EP2 and E2 process for color paper

[Rapidugo]

I need to find some alternatives of Agfacolor 92 and E2 process for paper.

I have A LOT of old Agfacolour roll of paper (in really good condition and still usable) that needed to be proceed in 92/E2.
I'm going to run out of this old chemistry and there is no way to throw away all my stock or wait 6 month a seller on ebay.
So I need to find some actual process who can fit this paper. I've found some advice for Agfacolour's reversal film, for c22 cross process, to process film in a c41 low temperature (strange because c41 is CD4 and 92/E is CD3)... But nobody is talking about processing paper.
I Know that 92/E2 are bromide based processes so RA4 won't work correctly. But I've found a guy who talked about adding some Benzyl Alcohol in the process (I don't know when) and a Ph adjustment (I don't know where)...
I also know that C41 is bromide based but CD4 so it can work but not perfectly.
I don't know if E6 can work and I know there's some moovies process based on bromide and using CD3

So I have several ideas but no real solution and it's a mess in my head. I have been thinking about trying to find the solution empirically for a while but it would save me a lot of time if someone could enlighten me on the subject.

I use this paper that has a negative on pinhole or large format chamber so the more precise, the better.

I'll be grateful for any advice
Ugo

 

[Romanko]

You probably mean EP-2 (Ektaprint-2). E2 was a reversal film process similar to E4 now replaced by E6. Do you have the formulas for EP-2? You might be able to improvise the chemistry using a 6-part E6 kit (Bellini makes one). The formulas for E6 are published (in Kodak and Fujifilm patents) so you should be able to figure out the differences between EP-2 and E6 and see if such modification is at all possible.

The movie film process that uses CD3 would be ECN-2. The formulas are published and the kits are available from Cinestill and other manufacturers. This could be your second option.

This book might help:

Color printing : materials, processes, color control : Engdahl, David A. : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Includes index

archive.org

(you need to sign up to read it online; it's free)

 

[cmacd123]

way back when I recall using the old Dale Neville teaspoon formualas, and one of the ideas was to take the C-41 developer and add some Benzyl Alcohol to the developer to use it on EP-2. the fellow also advicated mixing the Fix and Bleach to make a blix for EP-2 paper. their was also an addition of extra water to the chemicals to make them "paper Strength" but I don't rember if that was just teh developer or also the BLIX.

I have no idea if any of that would work with packaged formuals, all were based on Neville's Teaspoon mixtures. he prefered CD-4 for all his mixes, based on lower Toxicity he said.

the one print that I liked out of that experimentation was a shot taken on eastman color Negative (of the time) also processed in the Nevile formulas. My colour vison is not the greatest, But the print did capture the essence of the snowy day I was taken on, and it has been in a frame in my front hall for years, with some fading, but not excesive fading. If ron Mowery was still with us, I am sure we could hear him Shouting NO all the way from Rochester.

Last time I looked, no one had put any of nevilles ideas on teh web.

 

[Romanko]

But I've found a guy who talked about adding some Benzyl Alcohol in the process (I don't know when) and a Ph adjustment (I don't know where)

PhotoEngineer (Ron Mowery) in this thread referring to C22 process:

C41 in RA4 chemistry cross-processing

has anyone tried this? i was curious to see what would happen, i think i need to extend the blix times because paper blix is much weaker... my first attempt produces negatives with a very dense base, nearly impossable to print from... i was thinking i need to blix it for longer, any...

www.photrio.com

all were based on Neville's Teaspoon mixtures

I found this out from an Old newsletter published by a chap named Dale Neville.

Can someone share these old newsletters? There is still nothing on the net.

 

[cmacd123]

yes, I was forgeting teh details way back then. the process I was mentioning was with EP-2 Family paper.

Neville mailed out his publication as a photocopy of articles he did using a dot matrix printer.

 

[afriman]

The Photocolor II process which was developed in the UK by Photo Technology in the mid-1970s included an additive to make the C41 developer suitable for processing Kodak and other EP-2 compatible paper. According to an article published in a British photography magazine at the time, the additive appeared to contain benzyl alcohol, which would increase the pH. Interestingly, the instructions advised NOT to use the additive when processing Agfa paper, but rather to use the developer unaltered, at double the development time. The bleach-fix was used at the same dilution for both film and paper.

 

[afriman]

At a temperature of 35 degrees Celsius.

Yes, the Photocolor II instructions also specified 35C for Agfa paper, as opposed to 38C for all other papers. Development time was 4 minutes — without the additive. Fort other papers, with the additive it was 2 minutes at 38C.

Based on this, I would suggest that, as a starting point, you try developing the paper for 4 minutes in C41 developer at 35C.

 

[mohmad khatab]

Yes, the Photocolor II instructions also specified 35C for Agfa paper, as opposed to 38C for all other papers. Development time was 4 minutes — without the additive. Fort other papers, with the additive it was 2 minutes at 38C.

Based on this, I would suggest that, as a starting point, you try developing the paper for 4 minutes in C41 developer at 35C.

That French man (OP), opened the discussion and asked his inquiries, then went to lie on the sofa and decided not to respond to the opinions and posts of colleagues who responded to his inquiries.
That French man does not respect the efforts of the people. He decided to deliberately ignore the sincere attempts of his colleagues in order to find an answer to his inquiries and then solve his problem.
What is this bullshit .
I searched and wasted time in order to get a useful answer. I did not find a response or respect from the (OP), so I decided to delete my posts from this thread because it does not respect the efforts of my colleagues and did not pay them any attention or respect.

Even if I had the final solutions to this demand and those queries, I would not participate in this thread or any similar thread that deliberately disrespects people's efforts.

 

[Rapidugo]

That French man (OP), opened the discussion and asked his inquiries, then went to lie on the sofa and decided not to respond to the opinions and posts of colleagues who responded to his inquiries.
That French man does not respect the efforts of the people. He decided to deliberately ignore the sincere attempts of his colleagues in order to find an answer to his inquiries and then solve his problem.
What is this bullshit .
I searched and wasted time in order to get a useful answer. I did not find a response or respect from the (OP), so I decided to delete my posts from this thread because it does not respect the efforts of my colleagues and did not pay them any attention or respect.

Even if I had the final solutions to this demand and those queries, I would not participate in this thread or any similar thread that deliberately disrespects people's efforts.

Hi Mohmad,
I'm sorry for my attitude which may have seemed disrespectful but is absolutely not the case. After posting my message, I left for the weekend deep in the French countryside for a retreat disconnected from "civilization". I didn't have internet and so today I see your messages which I will carefully answer because they will help me a lot in my future attempts.
I'm sorry again if it seemed like a lack of respect, I think that nowadays we are connected enough to have the right to a disconnection from time to time.
So please accept my apologies and repost your message which I'm sure would help me a lot.

 

[Rapidugo]

You probably mean EP-2 (Ektaprint-2). E2 was a reversal film process similar to E4 now replaced by E6. Do you have the formulas for EP-2?

Thank's for your reply.
The corect process is AGFACOLOR process 92 but in a kit process 92, instruction for use i could read : "the chemicals of the AGFACOLOR process 92 kit have been designed for processing all coloour negative papers that can be developed in the KODAK E2". It means the paper can be processed with E2 chem by skipping the reversal part ( BW processing and light exposition). And may be also suitable for the classical E2 because I have rolls of paper with 92 and E2 written on them and others with only 92 written on them (not sure of that part).
I couldn't find the exact formula and i don’t know if the EP2 and E2 are similar.

 

[Rapidugo]

Yes, the Photocolor II instructions also specified 35C for Agfa paper, as opposed to 38C for all other papers. Development time was 4 minutes — without the additive. Fort other papers, with the additive it was 2 minutes at 38C.

Based on this, I would suggest that, as a starting point, you try developing the paper for 4 minutes in C41 developer at 35C.

Thank you very much for sharing all this knowledge. With this information I will be able to start testing by comparing with prints made with the original chemistry.
I will keep you posted on my results.

 

[afriman]

In case you haven't come across it yet, this site has some potentially useful information: https://www.photomemorabilia.co.uk/Colour_Darkroom/Early_Agfa.html#anchorAgfaCN3108.
It would seem that Process 92 papers were compatible with the Kodak EP2 process. I am pretty sure that the instructions you mention erroneously refer to "E2" instead of EP2.

For optimum results, you should probably look for an EP2 or Process 92 formula and mix the developer yourself.

 

[mohmad khatab]

Hi Mohmad,
I'm sorry for my attitude which may have seemed disrespectful but is absolutely not the case. After posting my message, I left for the weekend deep in the French countryside for a retreat disconnected from "civilization". I didn't have internet and so today I see your messages which I will carefully answer because they will help me a lot in my future attempts.
I'm sorry again if it seemed like a lack of respect, I think that nowadays we are connected enough to have the right to a disconnection from time to time.
So please accept my apologies and repost your message which I'm sure would help me a lot.

My French colleague.
As the ancient Egyptians say, your tactful, flowery response made me feel ashamed of myself for being somewhat harsh in my judgment.
Greetings to you
Back to the topic of discussion.
I am by nature a fan of the philosophy of Agfa in the absolute. Therefore, I always try to follow the steps of the Agfa curricula, which are generally close to my heart.
- I have a number of patents, and I searched for them until I found them.
But I actually find myself somewhat confused.?
I feel like I may not understand what the exact format is
What is the required format?
Is it a passive sensitive paper printing formula (similar to RA4) that works at a temperature of 35°C consisting of a paper color developer and then a Bleach/Fix solution.
Or is what is required is another process somewhat similar to process (E6), but it operates at a temperature of 30 degrees Celsius?
I have the two documents, tell me which one you want and I will give it to you.
There is also another process that operates at a temperature of 33 degrees Celsius,
I really don't know which process is right for you.
I apologize, I lost a large part of my concentration due to fasting, we are in the month of Ramadan right now. The problem is not hunger or thirst, but the problem is staying away from coffee and tea.

 

[lantau]

It seems you are looking for process EP2, indeed. I found this finished auction on eBay. The packaging says Agfa Color Process 92 - EP-2 compatible:

Agfa Color Process 92 Foto Entwickler Set 1 L Kit Foto Entwicklung | eBay

Entdecken Sie Agfa Color Process 92 Foto Entwickler Set 1 L Kit Foto Entwicklung in der großen Auswahl bei eBay. Kostenlose Lieferung für viele Artikel!

www.ebay.de

A few months ago I bought the photo recipe collection by the late Udo Raffay of CG Chemistry. It's originally from the 1980s and was sold out then. Since 1992 they are selling a computer printout. I was curious about it.

Anyway, it contains two suggested recipes. They are not the original Kodak recipes, but will probably work well enough. One is using CD4 colour developer, the other one CD3. My guess is that EP-2 originally used CD-3, not CD-4. So I would suggest to use this recipe:

Water (30°C)	850 mL
Photo-Calgon (probably Sodium hexametaphosphate)	2 g
Hydroxylamine sulfate	2g
Sodium Sulfite, anhydrous	2 g
Potassium carbonate (I guess anhydrous)	30 g
Potassium bromide (I guess anhydrous)	0.4 g
Benzylalcohol/Diethyleneglycol* Mixture 1:1	30 mL
6-Nitrobenzimidazole * HNO3 (nitrate), 0.3% solution in water, antifoggant	7 mL
CD3 (Colour Developer 3)	4.4 g
Water to make 1000 mL

Further comments extracted from Raffay:

Adjust pH to 10.1 - 10.2. Use 10% sulfuric acid, or 10% NaOH (or KOH), respectively, to adjust. If you are making your own you can also play a little with pH to adjust gradation, if desired. Higher pH -> harder gradation.

Benzylalcohol aids colour brilliance. A higher amount of it also, supposedly, increases colour intensity somewhat. As does an increase in CD-3.

Diethyleneglycol (HO-CH2-CH2-O-CH2-CH2-OH) helps dissolving Benzylalcohol and, according to Raffay, helps with more even development in colour and b/w processes.

If you make concentrates for dilution before use you should keep CD3 and also the Benzylalcohol/Diethyleneglycol mixture seperate and add before use.

Raffay suggests to use C41 Blix diluted 1:1 for the bleach fix stage.

Process step	33°C	38°C
Colour development	3,0 min	2,0 min
Stopp bath	30s	30s
Bleachfix	1.5 min	1.0 min
Washing	5 x 30s	4 x 30s

My own thoughts:

I do RA4 printing and I wash RC paper, both colour and b/w for 2-3 min in running water in the wash slot of my slot processor.

I don't use anti calcium agents (Calgon) when I make up my own photo solutions, instead I use deionised water.

As a stopbath between dev and blix I strongly suggest to use TS-7 from the film developing cook book. 2% acetic acid works only when always used fresh. The neutralisation curve of weak acids makes them useless for much more than one-shot use.

TS-7 is a buffer, which also means high salt content, which helps keeping down swelling. I make mine from 60% acetic acid (110mL) and 23.5g NaOH in 1L water. That way I don't need to buy sodium acetate. It has higher activity than dilute acetic acid, and higher capacity and keeps pH for a long time. Also a much film/paper friendlier pH than fresh 2% acetic acid.

Raffays recipe for C41 blix. The one which he suggests to use 1:1 for EP-2. But if you can buy RA4 blix I guess that should work?

Water, 50°C	300 mL
Ammonium-Fe(III)-EDTA Solution, 50%	230 mL
Ammoniumthiosulfate, 60%	345 mL
Potassium metabisulfite (see comment below)	26 g
Water to 1000 mL, pH 6.5

I'm not sure about the Potassium metabisulfite. As far as I know you don't want Potassium ions in fixer. Maybe Raffay wasn't aware. I'd use an equivalent of Sodium metabisulfite. It is acidic and brings the pH to 6.5.


If you require a source for (photo) chemicals, Foto Suvatlar (CG Chem) in Hamburg has all the special chemistry. I also bought Raffays 'book' there. After all Raffay worked there. Let me know if you want to contact them and need their contact or help.

 

[mohmad khatab]

It seems you are looking for process EP2, indeed. I found this finished auction on eBay. The packaging says Agfa Color Process 92 - EP-2 compatible:

Agfa Color Process 92 Foto Entwickler Set 1 L Kit Foto Entwicklung | eBay

Entdecken Sie Agfa Color Process 92 Foto Entwickler Set 1 L Kit Foto Entwicklung in der großen Auswahl bei eBay. Kostenlose Lieferung für viele Artikel!

www.ebay.de

A few months ago I bought the photo recipe collection by the late Udo Raffay of CG Chemistry. It's originally from the 1980s and was sold out then. Since 1992 they are selling a computer printout. I was curious about it.

Anyway, it contains two suggested recipes. They are not the original Kodak recipes, but will probably work well enough. One is using CD4 colour developer, the other one CD3. My guess is that EP-2 originally used CD-3, not CD-4. So I would suggest to use this recipe:


[TABLE=collapse]

Water (30°C)
850 mL


Photo-Calgon (probably Sodium hexametaphosphate)
2 g


Hydroxylamine sulfate
2g


Sodium Sulfite, anhydrous
2 g


Potassium carbonate (I guess anhydrous)
30 g


Potassium bromide (I guess anhydrous)
0.4 g


Benzylalcohol/Diethyleneglycol* Mixture 1:1
30 mL


6-Nitrobenzimidazole * HNO3 (nitrate), 0.3% solution in water, antifoggant
7 mL


CD3 (Colour Developer 3)
4.4 g


Water to make 1000 mL


[/TABLE]

Further comments extracted from Raffay:

Adjust pH to 10.1 - 10.2. Use 10% sulfuric acid, or 10% NaOH (or KOH), respectively, to adjust. If you are making your own you can also play a little with pH to adjust gradation, if desired. Higher pH -> harder gradation.

Benzylalcohol aids colour brilliance. A higher amount of it also, supposedly, increases colour intensity somewhat. As does an increase in CD-3.

Diethyleneglycol (HO-CH2-CH2-O-CH2-CH2-OH) helps dissolving Benzylalcohol and, according to Raffay, helps with more even development in colour and b/w processes.

If you make concentrates for dilution before use you should keep CD3 and also the Benzylalcohol/Diethyleneglycol mixture seperate and add before use.

Raffay suggests to use C41 Blix diluted 1:1 for the bleach fix stage.

[TABLE=collapse]

Process step
33°C
38°C


Colour development
3,0 min
2,0 min


Stopp bath
30s
30s


Bleachfix
1.5 min
1.0 min


Washing
5 x 30s
4 x 30s

[/TABLE]

My own thoughts:

I do RA4 printing and I wash RC paper, both colour and b/w for 2-3 min in running water in the wash slot of my slot processor.

I don't use anti calcium agents (Calgon) when I make up my own photo solutions, instead I use deionised water.

As a stopbath between dev and blix I strongly suggest to use TS-7 from the film developing cook book. 2% acetic acid works only when always used fresh. The neutralisation curve of weak acids makes them useless for much more than one-shot use.

TS-7 is a buffer, which also means high salt content, which helps keeping down swelling. I make mine from 60% acetic acid (110mL) and 23.5g NaOH in 1L water. That way I don't need to buy sodium acetate. It has higher activity than dilute acetic acid, and higher capacity and keeps pH for a long time. Also a much film/paper friendlier pH than fresh 2% acetic acid.

Raffays recipe for C41 blix. The one which he suggests to use 1:1 for EP-2. But if you can buy RA4 blix I guess that should work?

[TABLE=collapse]

Water, 50°C
300 mL


Ammonium-Fe(III)-EDTA Solution, 50%
230 mL


Ammoniumthiosulfate, 60%
345 mL


Potassium metabisulfite (see comment below)
26 g


Water to 1000 mL, pH 6.5


[/TABLE]

I'm not sure about the Potassium metabisulfite. As far as I know you don't want Potassium ions in fixer. Maybe Raffay wasn't aware. I'd use an equivalent of Sodium metabisulfite. It is acidic and brings the pH to 6.5.


If you require a source for (photo) chemicals, Foto Suvatlar (CG Chem) in Hamburg has all the special chemistry. I also bought Raffays 'book' there. After all Raffay worked there. Let me know if you want to contact them and need their contact or help.

You are a wonderful and great man, may God bless you
How about that book,
Can we share it with you or is this an embarrassing requirement?

 

[mohmad khatab]

Raffays recipe for C41 blix. The one which he suggests to use 1:1 for EP-2. But if you can buy RA4 blix I guess that should work?

Let's suggest a very cheap and respectable Blix formula, one that I personally use with movies.
The last two things I don't add as I use a cleansing bath before using Blix.
This is a very cheap, very practical formula that will last you a very long time if you use deionized water

It seems that today is your lucky day, French man. By the way, I'm a fan of the respected Alpine Team Ocon Questionnaire driver.

 

[Romanko]

Thanks lantau for sharing the information and Mohmad for reposting.
Udo Raffay's developer formula is close to ECN-2 developer published by Ashley on her site:

Processing ECN-2 film, in ECN-2 process, at home — Grainy Vision

ECN-2 film, often known as movie film or cine film, and made widely available in the form of Cinestill branded film, is great for what it is, but using Cinestill film in C-41 always bugged me. The colors always seem a bit off, it comes off as overly grainy, and the lack of antihalation layer on Cine

grainy.vision

but does not contain Benzyl Alcohol required to form the dyes. I am wondering if it could be added to water before mixing the rest of the developer chemistry. 15 ml should dissolve in 850 ml of water (theoretically) if not you will need a solvent (Diethyleneglycol in Udo Raffay's formular or maybe ethanol).
If you get ECN-2 as a kit you can try bleach/fix from the kit.

 

[mohmad khatab]

Thanks lantau for sharing the information and Mohmad for reposting.
Udo Raffay's developer formula is close to ECN-2 developer published by Ashley on her site:

Processing ECN-2 film, in ECN-2 process, at home — Grainy Vision

ECN-2 film, often known as movie film or cine film, and made widely available in the form of Cinestill branded film, is great for what it is, but using Cinestill film in C-41 always bugged me. The colors always seem a bit off, it comes off as overly grainy, and the lack of antihalation layer on Cine

grainy.vision

but does not contain Benzyl Alcohol required to form the dyes. I am wondering if it could be added to water before mixing the rest of the developer chemistry. 15 ml should dissolve in 850 ml of water (theoretically) if not you will need a solvent (Diethyleneglycol in Udo Raffay's formular or maybe ethanol).
If you get ECN-2 as a kit you can try bleach/fix from the kit.

Hello brother Romanko
I don't really understand, what does ECN2 have to do with this discussion?
We brought our French friend the originals of the original treatment.
Also, with regard to the Blix solution, I do not find that the idea of buying a solution from a chemical company is the most appropriate option.
As long as you decide to prepare your own chemistry, you should prepare everything from A to Z.
You should not buy part of the chemistry and prepare the other part.
Really, I was surprised by an English young man who sells chemistry sets (C41) in England to amateurs and writes the name of his laboratory as a trademark on the packages, and when I spoke to him, he told me that he is preparing the developer only and buys (bleach) from Titanal and buys (Fixer) ) from another Italian company.
- From my personal point of view, I prefer that he prepare everything with his own hands, and he must accept the challenge completely.
I suggested to him a formula (Blix) solution, which is more than wonderful, its cost is very cheap, and it is distinguished by the fact that it consists of elements that are easy to obtain in one way or another without obstacles, most of the elements, especially ferric chloride, are available in agricultural fertilizer stores and will not need to be purchased from Photographic chemistry companies that greatly exaggerate the prices of raw materials.

 

[Romanko]

what does ECN2 have to do with this discussion

ECN-2 color developer has all main components required by the formula given by lantau (except Benzyl Alcohol). Depending on Ugo's situation, access to raw chemistry and lead-time for ordering chemistry it might be more practical to get a ECN-2 kit from a local supplier, get some benzyl alcohol (pretty common) and run a few quick tests before investing into replicating the full Agfa formula. I agree that it would be a temporary solution and not a substitution to using the proper process.

 

[AgX]

It seems you are looking for process EP2, indeed. I found this finished auction on eBay. The packaging says Agfa Color Process 92 - EP-2 compatible:

In the manual of this Kit though Agfa refer to compatibilty with "E2" papers.

 

[mohmad khatab]

ECN-2 color developer has all main components required by the formula given by lantau (except Benzyl Alcohol). Depending on Ugo's situation, access to raw chemistry and lead-time for ordering chemistry it might be more practical to get a ECN-2 kit from a local supplier, get some benzyl alcohol (pretty common) and run a few quick tests before investing into replicating the full Agfa formula. I agree that it would be a temporary solution and not a substitution to using the proper process.

This is a respected viewpoint, and it makes sense to some extent.
But how much does it cost to buy a chemistry Kit ?

 

[Romanko]

In Australia Cinestill 2 Bath ECN-2 would be about A$65 (provided you can find one). Shipping any "dangerous" goods domestically by a courier would be at least A$25. If I am to source my raw chemicals from several providers then the kit is more economical. I hope the situation is better in Europe.

 

[AgX]

Bellini offer a ECN-2 kit for 12x 135-36 film.

 

[Romanko]

... with separate bleach and fix!
And a 7-bath E-6 kit!
From a local (to Ugo) distributor:

BELLINI - Kit de développement ECN2 - 1L

labo-argentique.com

And you can get Bellini in New Zealand (but not in Australia).