Advantage of 6x8 over 6x7?

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unclemack

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Hi Stradibarrius,
Almost sure that SD's always came with the 6x8 rotating adapter (mine did) and S's came with the 6x7 but check if you're buying because kit gets swapped around and sellers do sometimes make mistakes. Maybe ask for a photo to confirm?
The electric backs can be used on the S and with the 6x8 adapter you get the full frame. With the 6x7 adapter you don't get the full frame but it works otherwise.
The original Pro would need the back plate mod. before the 6x8 adapter will fit. A hole needs to be made for one of the later interlocks and the gate widened and heightened.
That's all IIRC.
 
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I have a Pro-S with a 6x7 rotating back. I am just wondering if I have to remove the 6x7 rotating back and replace it with a 6x8 rotating back for the 6x8 powerback to to give me a 6x8 negative...

There are two things you need before you can use the 6x8 back and actually get a 6x8 negative. That is, the 6x8 back, and the 6x8 light baffle. I think all the pro-SDs have both of these. Some pro-S models will have the 6x8 light baffle. To check, take out a ruler and measure the opening of the camera (not the revolving back adapter, take that off first.) The 6x7 baffle is about 68mm tall, 67mm wide. I'd assume the revolving adapter is about the same. If both of these are ~10mm larger than that, you don't need to buy anything. I think KEH has a 6x7 / 6x8 revolving adapter for ~$35, and I emailed mamiya directly about the baffle. They just told me to call, though, and didn't give me a price.

I'm kind of surprised that this thread's on the third page and that question still wasn't answered.
 

unclemack

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I have a Pro-S with a 6x7 rotating back. I am just wondering if I have to remove the 6x7 rotating back and replace it with a 6x8 rotating back for the 6x8 powerback to to give me a 6x8 negative...

Sorry if my last reply was unclear.
Yes, for a 6x8 neg you absolutely, positively need the 6x8 rotating adapter! It's gate is 74mm. wide.
Incidentally do you know already that frame width isn't 80mm. but 74+?
 

unclemack

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"The electric backs can be used on the S and with the 6x8 adapter you get the full frame. With the 6x7 adapter you don't get the full frame but it works otherwise."
For my part I'm "kind of surprised" that this was in some way unclear.
 

2F/2F

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If my tone was "frustrated", to use a word, it is because that is how I was feeling when I posted! The I am going to have to crop my images with this format is a just-plain-ol' frustrating statement. I can't see how anyone who is truly thinking and on the ball about images and technique would think that...but it is sooo common!

I did not say that there was no good reason for the 6x8 option. Not at all. Where did you get that? I said that what it does is dreadfully obvious: to give one a different size of image. What is the difference between one and two? Well, two is more. It goes without saying. Your question was, then, "What does more do for me?" This is what frustrated me, as it is such a basic question for someone with your high amount of participation in photography discussion. The advantages of larger formats is such a common question, and many, many discussions of it can be found on these very forums.

I too have never used an RB in 6x8 format, and learned two very important details: One terribly important detail added was that the you cannot compose the entire shot in the viewfinder. The other was that the image size is only 7.4 cm on the long side. However, these are specific details of a specific system, not a sweeping comparison of two formats, which is what you asked for. ("What is the main advantage if any of a 6x8 negative over a 6x7 negative?")

I do not state nor imply that my way of thinking and doing should be everyone's way. Not at all! I was stating exactly the opposite, in a way, because I was stating that you should do things your own way, instead of the paper company's way. I stated that if you are letting standard paper sizes alone determine the aspect ratio of your images, then you aren't really thinking about images (vision and intent), or about technique (largely common sense). You are thinking in boxes.

Did I say there was never any reason whatsoever to print to fit a standard paper size? Of course not. But there is no good reason to do it as a matter of course, unless working commercially and that is one of the criteria for the client...and there is also no good reason to shoot 6x8 instead of 6x7 if you aim to always fill a standard-sized printing paper...except perhaps a slight amount of "shift".

So, you think I said stuff I did not say, and do not think that what I said means what it says.

Here we go again with the "Where are your pix?" argument on the Internet. SO common when someone doesn't like what someone sez, but an argument that makes no sense. My analog photos are just that: analog. Additionally, I am, for the most part, except for purposes of demonstration, against the Internet at a tool for sharing my pix (digital OR analog). If you really want to see them, really, truly, honestly, then ask to look at my negs or prints. No big deal. I am working on a million projects any any given time, always shooting, and though I am not extremely outgoing with the work, I don't mind flipping through it with folks I personally know. If you just want to use the fact that you can't see them online as a weapon against me, then do not bother mentioning them. The Internet is no place for photography that I intend to have for myself, in a book, on a wall, or for a "client", IMHO. I am not here to show pictures and get people to like them, or me. I am here to have fun B.S.ing about photography in an honest way, as I do with all things.

As for ass and idiot, well...OK. You are wrong, and I have a very thick skin, especially on the Internet, so you saying this is not a huge issue to me personally, but it does do something to the forums that is undesirable, I guess. You can use the ignore button if that is your opinion, and if you believe I am an ass and an idiot, you should. I certainly do use it, and would not hold it against anyone for doing the same!
 
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2F/2F

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A tangent, if you don't mind...There have been several mentions of the 6x8 as being "more rectangular" than the 6x7. This is not technically true. A rectangle is, by definition, a 4 sided figure whose opposite sides are parallel and whose corners are all right angles. Therefore, even a square is a rectangle.
I realize that there are those who will regard this as splitting hairs, since people know what is meant by "more rectangular"; but it is one of those things that gets to me, thanks to my 10th grade geometry teacher.
Ria
P.S. I suppose, on the other hand, that 6x8 could be referred to as "less square"?

This is, of course, true...but it is also a given, I believe.

The term "strobes" used for "electronic flash" rubs me similarly wrongly...but this is not because it is a shorthand terms that slightly skews meaning to make its point. It is because it means something entirely different in an important way.
 

keithwms

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Aspect ratio is the thing.... how it affects the composition.

I don't think anybody in this thread was particularly concerned about the most economical fit to paper, so let us just set that aside and move on to more interesting things. If economy is the issue, one should simply shoot straight to paper and forget the neg altogether :wink: I thought this thread was more about why people favour 6x8, and there are many reasons.

According to me, going from one aspect ratio to another can be very helpful, in terms of learning composition. I would assert that it is not the same thing to crop to different aspect ratios... at least not for me. When I shoot squares, I almost always print squares form them. When I shoot 35mm, I almost always print to that aspect ratio. I think it is important to start connecting the composition to the final print as soon as possible, in the whole process. As I mentioned, the rb 6x8 back has the small disadvantage that you will not see the 6x8 frame on your ground glass.

~~~

Stradibarrius, when I shoot geometrical figures like violins and flowers and such, I almost always tend to squarer formats (I said that just to tick off Ria :rolleyes: ). Okay, I'll rephrase that: for those subjects, I tend to aspect ratios closer to 1:1 :wink:

~~~

This business of the golden mean aspect ratio (1.6180...) is quite interesting. Mathematically speaking, the really nutty bit is that if you look at the digits after the 1 (i.e. 6180...) you get those same numbers if you compute 1/1.6180....=0.6180.... That is a bizarre reciprocal. I don't know any other number that does that, nor would I even know how to go about finding one. It's a very odd thing. So I can see the mathematical fascination. Whether it amounts to anything special in visual art, well, I don't think so, and the proof would have to be in the pudding. I don't think it looks very special and, moreover, it is visually indistinguishable (to me) from 5:8 and maybe even 5:7. But I can see that it could have structural importance. And perhaps if you meditated on its significance then you might see something that others don't- who knows.

Anyway, 6x8 is nowhere close to the golden mean. If you really want to do golden mean then you want my 5x8" back, custom made for me by Shen Hao :cool: . That ratio is 1.6 exactly. I didn't plan it that way, I simply thought 5x7 was a bit short and since I have 5" roll film, I thought why not give it a go.
 
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stradibarrius

stradibarrius

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You are correct as to the original intent of the question. I was curious if there were some reason "other" than 1 cm why Mamiya would spend the money to make a 6x8 option for the RB cameras. The other reason is I found a 6x8 powerback for sale. I was wondering if there were compositional, aspect ratio, printing or some other reason that I do not know that would make the 6x8 back appealing. As you know there are other cameras that are available in 6x8 and it just seems odd that the only reason that the camera manufactuers would go to the trouble to make a format that is "just 1 cm" larger if there were no good reason???
Common sense tells me that companies do not spend money to make a product for no reason...there must be a market for the product or they would not make it. If there is a market then I think it is reasonable to ask "what is the advantage of 6x8 over 6x7" or "why does someone choose 6x8 format over the 6x7 format?"
 

2F/2F

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CBG

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I'm one more person who doesn't agree with the idea that any aspect ratio is sacred in any way. Some images call for a near square, and others call for a 1 to 10 ratio. Same with personal vision. The golden rectangle is elegant at times, and misplaced at others. Ditto any given format camera. It is a burden upon one's artistic vision to hold one's self hostage to a ratio. It may be a discipline, but ...

So, to respond to the OP, more aspect ratios give one more options. None is intrinsically better.
 

Q.G.

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I agree.

We however tend to compose most of our images to fit inside the frame (i.e. the camera's format) we happen to be using. So even though many subject would fit better inside a different frame, the choices we have made at exposure time (what else to expose, and how to arrange elements inside the given frame to create a balanced image) will often limit the possibility to reframe the thing afterwards.
So though the aspect ratio a camera's format presents is by no means sacred, it will put its mark on the images we create using that particular format.
 

Andre Noble

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I am really suprised no one mentioned what is perhaps the number one coincidental advantage of shooting 9 frames of 6x8 (or 18 frames of 6x8 on 220):

It is much easier to contact print (and sleeve in a single page) 3 strips of 3 frames. With 10 frames of 6x7, people have to resort to all sorts of less than idea arrangements. For example, my local prolab with cut your 6x7 into 2 frames of 3 and 2 frames of 2. Then they lay them horizontal and vertical when contacing them onto paper.

With 6x8, 3 strips of 3 is much more convieent and gives a less cluttered looking contact sheet.
 

Steve Smith

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I assume you only get nine exposures from a 6x8 back compared to ten from a 6x7 back (assuming 120 film). In whicvh case an extra benefit may be that you can get the whole film onnt a piece of 10x8 paper for contact prints and that the whole film will easily fit into a negative sleeve for storage.

EDIT: Perhaps I should have read all the posts (especially the one above) before posting!!


Steve.
 

Krzys

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I agree.

We however tend to compose most of our images to fit inside the frame (i.e. the camera's format) we happen to be using. So even though many subject would fit better inside a different frame, the choices we have made at exposure time (what else to expose, and how to arrange elements inside the given frame to create a balanced image) will often limit the possibility to reframe the thing afterwards.
So though the aspect ratio a camera's format presents is by no means sacred, it will put its mark on the images we create using that particular format.
Yes but you cant compose 6x8 on the Mamiya since the viewfinder shows a 7x7 square...
 

Roger Thoms

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It gives you a slightly more rectangular negative: nothing more, nothing less. But I think you already knew that. Are you asking how the 6x8 proportions will fit on standard paper sizes, or is your question about something else?

6x8 prints full frame very nicely on 11x14 paper with 1" borders. Gives you an image size of approximately 9"x12".

Roger
 

jim10219

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I'm one more person who doesn't agree with the idea that any aspect ratio is sacred in any way. Some images call for a near square, and others call for a 1 to 10 ratio. Same with personal vision. The golden rectangle is elegant at times, and misplaced at others. Ditto any given format camera. It is a burden upon one's artistic vision to hold one's self hostage to a ratio. It may be a discipline, but ...

So, to respond to the OP, more aspect ratios give one more options. None is intrinsically better.
I agree! And so does the company I have to buy custom frames from!
 

tomfrh

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the golden mean/aspect/ratio, whatever you want to call it is derived from nature and is in more elements of design that we are aware of. being an architecture major i can say it goes into EVERYTHING we use and see.

nah, it's largely mythical, hocus pocus. The examples people use to prove it's specialness are largely cherry picking and confirmation bias. Sure plenty of stuff matches it (which people take as PROOF) - but plenty of stuff doesn't match it either.

Here's a good outline:

https://www.fastcodesign.com/3044877/the-golden-ratio-designs-biggest-myth
 

Steve Smith

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It's a bit like guitar amplifiers which go up to eleven.


Steve.
 

ruilourosa

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Man... rules and rules!!!!! paper standards, negative proportions, composition rules.... standardization is the thing to run from!!!!

mamiya did it because they think would sell!!!!
 

narsuitus

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I use cameras with 6x7cm and 6x9cm aspect ratios. A 6x8cm camera would be advantageous to me as a good compromise instead of the two.
 
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