ADOX XT-3 (beautiful) "sparkles" in solution

[RalphLambrecht]

Hello

This is not the first time I see that, and I wonder what it is.

This XT-3 1 liter stock has 2 weeks, and is stored in 4 x 250 glass bottles, filled up the cap.

It’s just like small glitter dusts, sparks or crystal needles that dissolve slowly (for eyes, not sure at molecular level) when I agitate the solution.

It has been prepared with demineralized water.

I should better throw it away or I can use it?

Thank you for your guidance and understand what to expect

I had asimilar experiencewith self-brewed D-76 but it never caused an issue; I just shook it and used the devwithout any problems.

 

[Nicholas Lindan]

I had asimilar experiencewith self-brewed D-76 but it never caused an issue; I just shook it and used the devwithout any problems.

I always put that down to not having dissolved the metol before adding the sulfite. Also not using hot water for the dissolution - as I use DI or distilled water for developer it is invariably at room temperature.

 

[GeorgK]

Hello

This is not the first time I see that, and I wonder what it is.

This XT-3 1 liter stock has 2 weeks, and is stored in 4 x 250 glass bottles, filled up the cap.

It’s just like small glitter dusts, sparks or crystal needles that dissolve slowly (for eyes, not sure at molecular level) when I agitate the solution.

It has been prepared with demineralized water.

I should better throw it away or I can use it?

Thank you for your guidance and understand what to expect

Could be a reaction with the glass bottles. Average household soda-lime glass is not very persistant against alkaline solutions.

G.

 

[koraks]

Could be a reaction with the glass bottles. Average household soda-lime glass is not very persistant against alkaline solutions.

It takes a higher pH than an XTOL like developer, and the result is that the glass goes slightly matte over time. No shards/splinters come off.

This is just undissolved sulfite or maybe the sequestering agent Adox uses to prevent the Fenton reaction, which has only moderate solubility in water.

 

[pentaxuser]

I will redo another batch with warmer water in case of and do a more energic powder mixing and dissolution.
I also sent a message to Adox, I hope they can give us more information.

It is still a puzzle to me in terms of a cause or causes. It looks as if the results of the two actions above may help achieve a resolution us when Denis reports back

pentaxuser

 

[Alessandro Serrao]

I've always said that it's not trivial to reverse-engineering an advanced developer like Kodak Xtol.

 

[dokko]

I've always said that it's not trivial to reverse-engineering an advanced developer like Kodak Xtol.

well, in this thread there are people who report that they had the same issue with the original Kodak product, while I've never seen it with neither Kodak or Adox.

the strange thing is that the OP seems to mix it exactly like me, only difference is the use of a magnetic stirrer and a 1l pack (I use 5l packs), nether of which should make a difference.

might be worth a try to make a test and fill one of the problematic bottles into a different bottle and check if it makes a difference to eliminate one possible (even if unlikely) case

 

[gorbas]

For very long time (20+ years) I'm reusing green glass 1l bottles from Martini, 0.75l bottles from San Pellegrino sparkling water and 0.5l from Grolsch beer to store Xtol. All of them had those crystals. My take is that it's there but people just did not notice it. Backlit your bottles, turn them once and check. Simple! I have seen etching on glass bottle from storing B bath for two bath developer containing Sodium Hydroxide.

 

[pentaxuser]

. All of them had those crystals. My take is that it's there but people just did not notice it. Backlit your bottles, turn them once and check. Simple!

Well that's certainly an explanation that reconciles all the posts where there were difference experiences mentioned, assuming that they are there

pentaxuser

 

[dokko]

My take is that it's there but people just did not notice it. Backlit your bottles, turn them once and check. Simple!

I just held up 5 different 500ml glass bottles of about 3 weeks old developer against a very bright LED light and looked from all angles and all I can see is some dust and some thin worm like curved things, but certainly nothing which looks like the needles in the original post.

so assuming I'm not completely blind or crazy, that doesn't seem to be the explanation.

 

[pentaxuser]

Well it looks as if the "needles" may occur only rarely. I wonder what Adox has to say? It of course may never have seen these needles. If they occur only rarely then short of testing many 100s of packets the maker Adox is probably unlikely to have seen them

We haven't heard back from the OP in terms of his answers from Adox or the results of doing what he said he would do next time he mixed XT-3

I am unsure whether we can get any further with an explanation or a cause until we do

pentaxuser

 

[mshchem]

I have XT-3 that I bought in 2021, I mixed up in March of 2023, still is the original slight lemon yellow color. Still works (I haven't done any critical testing), not sure what I will do with it. I have plenty of chemistry.

 

[Denis OLIVIER]

Hi to all,
Small update about this thread.
The diluted powder with warmer water seems better, still no crystal in the bottles.
I tried to use the "compromised batch", filtering it before, then had processed with success an Ilford Pan-F and a Kodak T-Max 400.
Thanks again all for your inputs, even if we really not sure what it was, it's always great to exchange

 

[Denis OLIVIER]

Hello guys,
I kept 2 bottles of the batch I did in June 4, and they have again these needles.
My preceding post mentioned a warmer water and "more - different - efficient" agitation, this doesn't solve the problem.
On July 17, I had finally a reply from Adox, telling me they will ask their chemists, but I still waiting for feedback.
Stay tuned!

 

[halfaman]

Kodak XTOL and also D76 have left undissolved particles each and every time I mix them, even at 50° C. I just filter the stock with a paper filter for drip coffee makers while transfering to bottles and move on. Never had a problem.

So the question is if those particles are abnormal for Adox XT3 and, in the affirmative case, whether they indicate a problem with the developer perfomance or not.

 

[Team ADOX]

Hello guys,
I kept 2 bottles of the batch I did in June 4, and they have again these needles.
My preceding post mentioned a warmer water and "more - different - efficient" agitation, this doesn't solve the problem.
On July 17, I had finally a reply from Adox, telling me they will ask their chemists, but I still waiting for feedback.
Stay tuned!

Hello,

we hope you've received our detailed reply via Email.

General information for all members partcipating here in this thread:
It looks like a crystallization has happened.
In general that can happen in the following cases:
1. Too low temperature of the stock solution.
2. Not sufficient dissolving of the powder when mixing the stock solution. It is absolutely necessary with all powder developers that the powder is really completely dissolved. Because undissolved particles can work as crystallisation starting points. Better to stir a bit longer / more accurately to be really on the safe side.
3. Too high concentration (a bit too little water volume).

That is the first time that a customer has reported such a problem. And we have meanwhile sold thousands of XT-3 packages.

ADOX - Innovation in Analog Photography.
THE BEST THINGS IN LIFE ARE ANALOG.

 

[mshchem]

I use a small laboratory propeller mixer when mixing XTOL 5L batches. Absolutely need to mix throughly and not stop until completely dissolved.
I've mixed up XT-3, I always use purified water (for all solutions) I've stored XT-3 for months in full glass bottles no problems.

Water quality is a big factor, I have a water softener. Hard water that is softened is absolutely loaded with sodium carbonate, it's impossible to use (in my situation) for making XTOL, I've tried. I use reverse osmosis purified water for solutions.

 

[Kino]

That's how my granular Borax looks when I mix D-76. A bit of extra heat, wrap the container in a towel and leave it overnight. Should dissolve just fine...

 

[Philippe-Georges]

Would warming in a microwave help to 'break' and dissolve these needles?

Correct me if I am wrong (I am not scientist nor an engineer), but sometimes the microwaves can make things fractionate due to the molecules expanding by the heating caused by the friction generated by the micro- 'radio' waves.

I haven't tried nor tested it as there was no need imposing it, it's just a crazy idea (*) that all the sudden came up after seeing a video on YouTube on how garden and kitchen machines work (and where the ideas/inventions came from)...

(*) Steve Jobs loved crazy ideas and see what happend...

 

[Kino]

Would warming in a microwave help to 'break' and dissolve these needles?

Personally, I wouldn't do it that way. Just put the bottle in a sauce pan full of water a bit more warm than the recommended mixing temperature, cover it with a towel and let it sit overnight.

I would be afraid of uneven heating and possible weird byproducts if a microwave was use, but that's not based on anything other than my personal "hunch".

 

[Philippe-Georges]

Personally, I wouldn't do it that way. Just put the bottle in a sauce pan full of water a bit more warm than the recommended mixing temperature, cover it with a towel and let it sit overnight.

I would be afraid of uneven heating and possible weird byproducts if a microwave was use, but that's not based on anything other than my personal "hunch".

I understand your replay, which was just like mine based on a certain "hunch" (so I am not alone having hunches ).
But, what I was thinking of was not particularly (raising) temperature, but more the effect microwaves are having on the 'life' of molecules, if you understand what I am tying to say (I might be formulating it wrongly).

But I am afraid that this is a so crazy idea, that it must be stupid?

 

[Ivo Stunga]

FWIW - bought 5l PQ Universal and received it sparkling like yours, OP. Poured it in individual 1 liter bottles, topped with some butane and there's that.

And it didn't matter at all over those 2 years of using it up: like brand spanking new.

 

[koraks]

the microwaves can make things fractionate due to the molecules expanding by the heating caused by the friction generated by the micro- 'radio' waves.

I can see where the thought comes from, although it confuses a couple of fundamental aspects of how microwave heating works. To cut a very long foray into RF and molecular physics short: no, I don't expect microwave heating to trigger crystal fracturing in a solution that has some crystals of sulfite etc. floating around in it. Microwaving will work very well in the regular way: i.e. to heat up the solution so that the crystals can dissolve. That's no different in terms of physics from heating on a gas stove etc, although the energy source and transfer process are of course different.

With a stretch of the imagination, I can see how water-containing crystals (let's say, something like sodium carbonate) that are not dissolved in water will fracture when you microwave them, since the water inside them heats up, expands into steam and thus cracks the crystals. But again, if you put the stuff in a regular oven, the same thing happens.

 

[Denis OLIVIER]

Hi all,
still a mystery to me.
There should be something that breaks the process but I can't found it.
Their never dissolved, even with more water or by warming the bottles in bain-marie.
I use distilled water, I did soooo many preparation since 1994, with soooo many developers, having this case with more than 3 batches of XT-3 in 2 years, this case struck me as something I'd never experienced before.
Anyway, when I filter the solution no problem at all, I did it again this morning.
I double check all, quantity, temperature, agitation, recipient, maybe I should try another water supplier, in case of.
Anyway, there are much more bad thing in this World, as I said to Adox, I never think there was a problem with the product, otherwise I won't use it, I'm more in the idea to understand why it occurs with XT-3 only and avoid it, and want to continue to use this wonderful developer because I deeply appreciate their commitment to photographers community and the environment.
Take care all

 

[Denis OLIVIER]

Hi everyone

Happy to give you a good update about this.

I changed water supplying, from demineralized "common" water in supermarket to distilled one I do now with a water distiller machine, and it is perfect.

I really deeply appreciate @ADOX Fotoimpex effort to communicate with end users and all guys who give their input here.

Take care and have a nice week-end.