Adox CHM 400 in Rodinal 1+25 --> low contrast?

darkosaric · Dec 12, 2020

I developed some films that I shoot in Brunei, and Adox CHM 400 in Rodinal 1+25 has really low contrast. Rodinal and fixer are fresh (no issues with FP4+ and Adox iso 100 / they are developed great), I used Nikon F100 and Leica Minilux, in both cameras the same low contrast. Marks on the film are developed in full with nice contrast, base of the film is not PET clear, it is purple, fixing time 10min in 1+4 fixer. It was bright and sunny / very contrasty scenes. I used in darkroom filter grade 4 to get decent prints, but I am wondering - did other have the same low contrast with this film? On web I see much better results, so wondering... Developing time for 1+25 was 13 minutes, longer because of lower temperature in my basement (17 deg C) - devchart says 6min on 20 deg C.

Here are 2 prints (shoot with smartphone, prints are still wet):

darkosaric · Dec 12, 2020

The only thing that I can think of is that I underdeveloped...

MattKing · Dec 12, 2020

May we see the negatives?
To me, that looks like under-exposure.

darkosaric · Dec 12, 2020

I used DX, iso 400, matrix metering on F100, but it could be that native iso of that film is much lower.

darkosaric · Dec 12, 2020

I want to say - negatives are printable, but only instead of usual grade 2 1/2, I use grade 4 for the same result. Strange...

dynachrome · Dec 12, 2020

If you are going to use a film/developer combination for the first time and you have important pictures, shoot some test film to get it right and then develop the important rolls.

ic-racer · Dec 12, 2020

In the past the same film and developer combination printed well on Grade 2.5 and now you require grade 4, is that correct?

Craig75 · Dec 12, 2020

The temperature might be the culprit. The datasheet im looking at stops at 18 degrees. If you started at 17 degrees for 12 minutes you could have seen a drop off in activity and temperature by the end of development. Ie it might have ended up 15 degrees or lower in the tank at the end of the 12 minutes and just too cool in there for the developer.

(A guess that im presenting as stone cold fact)

darkosaric · Dec 13, 2020

ic-racer said:
In the past the same film and developer combination printed well on Grade 2.5 and now you require grade 4, is that correct?

No, not the same film. This is first time that I use this film. Other 400 films are printing well with 2,5 grade.

EDIT: only film that was similar in so low contrast was Foma retro 320 film, but I think that was there by design.

darkosaric · Dec 13, 2020

Craig75 said:
The temperature might be the culprit. The datasheet im looking at stops at 18 degrees. If you started at 17 degrees for 12 minutes you could have seen a drop off in activity and temperature by the end of development. Ie it might have ended up 15 degrees or lower in the tank at the end of the 12 minutes and just too cool in there for the developer.

(A guess that im presenting as stone cold fact)

Temperature is constant 17 deg, the whole basement is on 17C. But I am guessing as well that this could the issue, as on winter it is cold in my basement.

relistan · Dec 14, 2020

Hey @darkosaric it's hard to tell from that photo, but the whole film base appears to be perhaps a bit fogged? That would explain the contrast. This film is identical to Kentmere 400 and that film usually exhibits good contrast in 1+25 if developed long enough.

ic-racer · Dec 14, 2020

darkosaric said:
No, not the same film. This is first time that I use this film. Other 400 films are printing well with 2,5 grade.

EDIT: only film that was similar in so low contrast was Foma retro 320 film, but I think that was there by design.

I don't know what you are comparing this film to. One would not expect two different films to have the same development time. If you would like the new film to print on 2.5 grade, then you would need to increase the development time.

grain elevator · Dec 14, 2020

ic-racer said:
I don't know what you are comparing this film to. One would not expect two different films to have the same development time. If you would like the new film to print on 2.5 grade, then you would need to increase the development time.

Exactly. You mention times from a "devchart"; if that's the massive one: There's a lot of nonsense on there, it's not redacted AFAIK. The manufacturer recommended times are usually a better starting point.

darkosaric · Dec 14, 2020

I am comparing this film to all other iso 400 films. For me is it too low contrast, just want to ask others who maybe used this film - do they have also low contrast results (is this expected with this film), or it is just too short development time, or what could this be.

darkosaric · Dec 14, 2020

relistan said:
base appears to be perhaps a bit fogged

Yes, indeed. I wrote about base in initial post, but film is fresh, and I shoot like 8 rolls, in 3 different cameras. And I fixed with fresh fixer, for more than 10min.

Edit: Kentmere 400 I used a lot, good contrast all the time, here is one example.

Anon Ymous · Dec 14, 2020

@darkosaric This shot with the priest seems to have some fogging. The lower part of his clothes seem strangely light and so does the road on the bottom left part.

darkosaric · Dec 15, 2020

Anon Ymous said:
@darkosaric This shot with the priest seems to have some fogging. The lower part of his clothes seem strangely light and so does the road on the bottom left part.

No, on clothes there was a water stain on a negative, and this is a cheap negative scan, that scans uneven. Print itself is good (after I have cleaned the negative).

I use this cheap scanner because it is fast, and serves me only to check which negatives go on print:

koraks · Dec 15, 2020

darkosaric said:
I used DX, iso 400, matrix metering on F100, but it could be that native iso of that film is much lower.

View attachment 261476

Mostly underexposed.

Craig75 · Dec 15, 2020

Id be tempted to cut a small bit of exposed leader from another roll and throw it straight into the fixer and see if it clears.

If it doesnt then put a bit of exposed leader from a different brand in the fixer and see if it clears.

relistan · Dec 15, 2020

darkosaric said:
Edit: Kentmere 400 I used a lot, good contrast all the time, here is one example.

Well, this is the exact same film, just branded FOTOIMPEX CHM. AFAIK they never sold this as an ADOX film. Harman makes this film for Fotoimpex and it's the same stock as Agfaphoto APX-400 (new), modern RPX-400, Kentmere 400, Ultrafine Extreme, and probably others. For awhile it looks like RPX-400 may have been slightly different, but it's the same now also. If you doubt that I'm telling you the truth, even Fotoimpex almost call it out in their listing in the store:

"CHM 400 can be exposed and developed identically as APX 400 NEW, RPX 400 and (surprise!) Kentmere 400."

Did you shoot and develop it the same way that you shot and developed the Kentmere 400 you were happy with? If not, that's the main cause, fogging or fixer aside.

darkosaric · Dec 15, 2020

relistan said:
Did you shoot and develop it the same way that you shot and developed the Kentmere 400 you were happy with? If not, that's the main cause, fogging or fixer aside.

I think yes, it was some time ago when I used Kentmere - so cannot say 100% sure. But I suspect that fogging and slight underdevelopment (low temperature) is the root cause. Could be that I used Kentmere not in the winter time, and then in my basement is not 17°C but closer to 19°C.

darkosaric · Dec 15, 2020

Craig75 said:
Id be tempted to cut a small bit of exposed leader from another roll and throw it straight into the fixer and see if it clears.

If it doesnt then put a bit of exposed leader from a different brand in the fixer and see if it clears.

I will do that, I have 2 more rolls (purchased 10 rolls). I am guessing fog issue, will revert when done.

darkosaric · Dec 20, 2020

Craig75 said:
Id be tempted to cut a small bit of exposed leader from another roll and throw it straight into the fixer and see if it clears.

If it doesnt then put a bit of exposed leader from a different brand in the fixer and see if it clears.

So, the test is done. Now I am thinking - this base fog is there, even on FP4+, that I did not noticed in the first time, probably because FP4+ has higher contrast.
Could it be that this is because of X rays in airport? Film did travel from Hamburg - Amsterdam - Kuala Lumpur - Brunei, and back.
I did used 3 different cameras (Nikon F100, Leica Minilux, Fujifilm P&S), all showing same results.

relistan · Dec 20, 2020

I recently encountered something like this. I think it may have indeed been an issue in my case from traveling through the airport a few times. See this thread https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/interesting-fog-issue.179747/

mshchem · Dec 20, 2020

New machines at airports fog film. I think you have identified several things . Base fog from xrays, cooler than optimum processing, things start to get weird when you are out of the 20 -25°C range for black and white film. And the damned purple dye. I process on a Jobo and I run at least 3 minutes hypo clearing agent, after a 5 minute rapid fix on Tmax Delta etc films. In the photos you are definitely seeing base fog from something and the cool temps, I agree may be an issue.

Adox CHM 400 in Rodinal 1+25 --> low contrast?

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