Adjusting developing times for 25yr old Ilford FP4+?

[cinotrah]

Morning everybody,

I've recently inherited a 1920s Rolleiflex with an Ilford FP4+ 125ASA 120 roll in it; there were about 4 shots taken when I got the camera, the rest of the film I simply took some test shots. I did some research but couldn't find any real answer, which is why I'm asking here. I'm planning on developing it with D-76; the Massive Dev Chart recommends: stock solution 8,5min at 20°. My question is: should I increase a bit? Should I do a test clipping? How? If I took the last pictures on the film, I should be able to get a clipping from that end, am I right?

Thanks and bye,

cino

 

[snapguy]

love

I adore D-76 and have for more than 50 years but is it the best for this purpose? I hear HC110 is best for olde film. I like the clip test idea.

 

[cinotrah]

I'd prefer developing with a more suitable developer, but only have D-76 and XTOL at hand (or Caffenol ) . I need to take out the film in order to get the spool, since the camera uses 117 and I need to respool 120. Don't really like the idea of keeping the old film stored somewhere until I get new chemicals...

 

[Dr Croubie]

I've shot FP4 (non+) and Panatomic X both with expiry dates in the 70s. Both at maybe 1/2 - 1 stop below box-speed, both in Caffenol-L-C (by the book with about 1g/l of KBr) for about an hour with a few inversions occasionally.
Both are some of the most perfectly developed negs that I've got, much better than a lot of stuff I did in 'real' developers with time and temp measurements and everything.

ps, like this one, this was FP4 from 1979:

Just a neg scan so far, but I'll print in properly one day.

 

[cinotrah]

Thanks Croubie, that was really helpful. Nice shot btw! I'd like to try caffenol then, what was your exact receipe? Also, did you go after any time standards, and did you increase time because auf the age of the film? Mine expired 1991.

 

[Simon R Galley]

Dear Cinotrah,

D76 / ID 11 is absolutely fine.

8.5 Mins should be OK, but I would probably add a minute and a half ie 10 mins..... clip test is always a safe option. One thing, if the film has been in the camera for 25 years ???? may not be much on the first four frames, and I hope it was light tight.

Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

 

[Dr Croubie]

Thanks!
When I say 'by the book', I mean this one.
So (for 120 film in a Paterson tank):
500ml of water (I just use room temperature Puratap filtered).
8g Washing Soda (pure) and stir a few minutes until dissolved
5g Vitamin C and stir a few minutes until dissolved
20g coffee (Woolworth's home brand gutrot) and stir a few minutes until dissolved
As near to 1g of KBr as I can, anywhere 0.7 - 1.3g in reality because it's hard to measure such small weights, and stir a bit (more KBr mean less fog, but less developing activity)
For measuring, I got some scales from fleabay, like this one.

Maybe leave it for 5 mins to make sure that everything's dissolved properly, but I don't wait an hour for it to be fully room temperature again (one of the reactions is exothermic and it gets hot, or something).
Just pour it in and invert a bit, 20-30s or so.
I don't do the 1-2-4-8-16-32 minute inversions they suggest, more like 5-10-20-40 if I'm even that organised. Usually I pour it in while I'm making dinner or watching TV and invert when it's "been a while".
Nominally 1 hour, sometimes 50mins if I'm impatient, this film may have been 1 hour 20 because I got distracted.

Here's another from that roll that I really like (definitely going to print this one day, when I decide whether to crop out the flare or leave it in):

 

[Paul Howell]

A couple of weeks ago I found a Vivitar ES rangefinder from the 70s with a roll of exposed Gaf 500 left in the camera. I usually use HC 110 but not having any on hand I found a box of Diafine, the quart size, my last box. I mixed it and developed at room temp 4 and 4 minutes water rinse then standard fixer, worked rather well, not a lot of base fog, low contrast with good shadow details. Looks like pictures of an airshow, not here in Arizona, F 105s and F 4s, C 141, have not yet printed, I don't have access to a scanner or I would post a few frames. GAF 500 had a lot of grain maybe 5X7s.

Diafine is now $50 for a gallon, too bad having the quart size on hand was useful.

 

[cmacd123]

recently got and shot a roll of FP4 from 1970. speed and contrast was not too far off new, but the emulsion had stuck to the backing paper in one or two places. Funny the wrapper was still sealed, but their was some rust on the spool.

 

[cinotrah]

Dear Cinotrah,

D76 / ID 11 is absolutely fine.

8.5 Mins should be OK, but I would probably add a minute and a half ie 10 mins..... clip test is always a safe option. One thing, if the film has been in the camera for 25 years ???? may not be much on the first four frames, and I hope it was light tight.

Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

Thanks Simon! I used D76 1:1 for 13 minutes, (added +2 from recommended 11 minutes), took a clip test, thought the result was too thin, and added another 2 minutes for a full 15 minute development. I guess I wouldn't have needed those extra 2, since the thinness of the clip test was more likely the result of my underexposure than underdeveloped film. The first two frames from the 1980s turned out quite well! Didn't scan the negatives yet, but here's a picture of the 15 x 15 cm prints I made, photo from my phone is a bit blurry.

Unfortunately, I didn't pay attention to how the film was loaded when I took it out. I've done a bit of research and found people showing the film going under one of the metal reels in newer Rollei-models; though where their cameras have a metal reel, the Old Standard doesn't have one. I've tried putting film below and above another reel (see picture attached), below seems more tight but a lot closer to the edge - I'm assuming that this might damage the film and might not be necessary, because the metal plate that sits on the inside of the back of the camera already adds a bit of pressure; but then I guess I'm quite confused right now.

Thanks!
When I say 'by the book', I mean this one.
So (for 120 film in a Paterson tank):
500ml of water (I just use room temperature Puratap filtered).
8g Washing Soda (pure) and stir a few minutes until dissolved
5g Vitamin C and stir a few minutes until dissolved
20g coffee (Woolworth's home brand gutrot) and stir a few minutes until dissolved
As near to 1g of KBr as I can, anywhere 0.7 - 1.3g in reality because it's hard to measure such small weights, and stir a bit (more KBr mean less fog, but less developing activity)
For measuring, I got some scales from fleabay, like this one.

Maybe leave it for 5 mins to make sure that everything's dissolved properly, but I don't wait an hour for it to be fully room temperature again (one of the reactions is exothermic and it gets hot, or something).
Just pour it in and invert a bit, 20-30s or so.
I don't do the 1-2-4-8-16-32 minute inversions they suggest, more like 5-10-20-40 if I'm even that organised. Usually I pour it in while I'm making dinner or watching TV and invert when it's "been a while".
Nominally 1 hour, sometimes 50mins if I'm impatient, this film may have been 1 hour 20 because I got distracted.

Here's another from that roll that I really like (definitely going to print this one day, when I decide whether to crop out the flare or leave it in):

Hey Croubie, thanks for sharing! In the end, I was too scared to try my first caffenol on this potential treasure. I did however try developing two test rolls, one Kodak TMax 400 and one Kodak Ultramax 400 with the Delta-STD recipe with doubled amount of Vit. C: 1l water, 24g soda, 40g Vit. C, 45g coffee. (http://www.caffenol.org/recipes/ or Caffenol cookbook page 17) I developed for 11 minutes, as the development chart suggested, and the results were very thin. I was barely able to make out the borders of the negatives, far harder on the Ultramax. So I guess there was some development, but very very little. As I'm looking at your times, I'm wondering if I should have developed far longer than that.. those were newly exposed rolls, the Ultramax being expired sometime in 2012. It could also be my carelessness about the whole experimental approach: I had to mix two different coffees (both caffeeinated), since I didn't have enough of one sort; and I agitated about once a minute, and did not follow any scheme. After mixing together the developer I let it stand for about 30 minutes, where the recipe suggests only 5 minutes. In spite of all these differences from the recipe, I wasn't expecting this to have such a huge impact on the result. I'll think about trying out a different recipe, or giving it another shot when I feel more like caring for exactness. Any thoughts here? Also, any experiences on Ilford HP5+ (120 and 35mm) in Caffenol greatly appreciated

PS: I vote for leaving in the flare!

 

[Rhodes]

I have a few meters of FP4+, expired in 88 or 89. Just re-founded again and decided to see what I could get with it. Seaside, dull day, 1h stand with rodinal 1+100 and got this:
img091 by rhodes pinto, on Flickr

img094 by rhodes pinto, on Flickr

crop of photo:
Seagull! by rhodes pinto, on Flickr

img118 by rhodes pinto, on Flickr

For me, still usable.