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Actual frame size of Fujica GW690

Stolk

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I have a Fujica GW690 6x9 Professional.

I assumed that the frame size would be 6x9 cm, but it is much narrower: 54.5 x 80 mm instead.

Do I have a GW690 branded camera with GW680 innards?

(My Voigtlaender Bessa II, on the other hand, is much closer to 9cm, at 88mm wide. It seems more worthy of the Texas Leica moniker than the Fujica?)







 
  • blee1996
  • Deleted
  • Reason: wrong info

My GW690III looks to be identical to what you're measuring
 
Even 4x5 isn't 4x5 .
Your Bessa II is actually unusual.
 
It is perhaps easier to think of medium format frame sizes in English units:
2-1/4" x 1-3/4", 2-1/4" x 2-1/4" square, 2-1/4" x 2-3/4", 2-1/4" x 3-1/4".

These convert to metric units:
57x44mm, 57x57mm, 57x70mm, 57x83mm.

It's not exact because many cameras (especially newer ones IMO) will have slightly smaller actual frame sizes. For example, a lot of 2-1/4" square cameras are actually about 56x56mm, 6x7 cameras are about 56x68mm, 6x9 cameras about 56x82mm. But they are usually closer to the quarter inch sizes than to "6x4.5, 6x5, 6x7, 6x9", which are basically convenience names.
 
The "normal" size for 6x9 is 56x84mm.
 

Thanks.

This makes me wonder what the frame spacing is on Kodak’s backing paper on the film, with the printed numbers 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8.

Probably 90mm?
 

Not really. All numeric sizes in my experience are approximate & at the mercy of manufacturers/engineers.... designs & builds. It makes no difference to me....if 6x6 is too small then go to 6x7, 6x8, 6x9, 6x12....
 
Yes that's the proper size. The 6x7 and 6x8 versions have masks glued onto the reliefs on the left and right of the film aperture. The size on the negative will be a bit larger than 80mm because of the offset of the reliefs.
 
Thanks.

This makes me wonder what the frame spacing is on Kodak’s backing paper on the film, with the printed numbers 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8.

Probably 90mm?

I have some backing paper at hand (it's Ilford), with these spacings:
6x4.5: 1-7/8", 47.5mm
6x6: 2-1/2", 63.5mm
6x9: 3-11/16", 93.5mm

Most of the rollfilm sizes showed up very early when consumer photos were generally contact-printed (an exception is 6x7 which appeared much later).
 
Yeah, my 1930's Bessas are also both unusually large, around 88mm if I recall. Horseman 970 and most others are 82mm. 54:82 is closest to true 2:3.
 
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I'd be concerned if the image height was too much; there would be more risk of edge fogging or uneven development. Actual width would be determined by the mechanics of the winding mechanism, and how easy it would be to set this during mfg depending on whether 6x6, 6x7, 6x8, or 6x9 were in mind, using similar interchangeable components.

I don't have a GW 6x9, but a GWii and GWiii, which have exactly the same image size, and probably the same mechanical innards too. I've only gotten into and myself serviced the older model in that respect; but the repair manual shows nearly all the same hidden interior parts for both.
 
max frame width on 120 is typically 56mm...so called 6x6 and 6x7 and 6x9 is not that wide
645 is typically only 42-43mm not 45, with 55-56mm across the film width.
 
Thanks.

This makes me wonder what the frame spacing is on Kodak’s backing paper on the film, with the printed numbers 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8.

Probably 90mm?

The frame spacing on the backing paper is standardized - by the film manufacturer, and ISO standards.
The film has some room at either end, but the film advance systems - and the camera's film transport system - are generally but not always matched to the standard.
What varies is the film gate size, and in turn the spacing between frames.
Thus the difference between certain 6x4.5 cameras - some squeeze 16 frames from a 120 roll, while many only give you 15.
I expect the minor differences relate at least partially to the complexity of the film path and the film advance mechanisms, along with varying needs to have need for space between frames in order to give flat field performance by, inter alia, ensuring flat film.
 
To sum up, the metric nominal frame sizes 6x6, 6x9 and 6x12 are poor metric approximations to 2.25" x 2.25", 2.25" x 2.75", 2.25" x 3.25" and 2.25" x 4.50". The first three sizes were set by Kodak, as has been mentioned above.

Nominal 6x8 is not based on anything Kodak did.

There are, however, no published standards and some camera and roll holder manufacturers have interpreted the sizes freely. This is why some nominal 6x9 cameras have 56 (or so) x 84 mm gates and why the LInhof Techno-Rollex nominal 6x12 gate is 56 (or so) x 120 mm instead of the more common 56 x 112.

The OP's confusion is understandable. Taking poor approximations as real dimensions is an unfortunate consequence of widespread ignorance. As for paranoia, there's a lot of it going around these days.
 
Yeah, I understand, the frame spacing on my GW690 will depend on the winding system. I believe simpler advance systems will not be able to adjust for start-of-roll vs end-of-roll discrepancies in spool diameter. My Koni Omegaflex has a fancy system that adapts the wind to the shot number, making the frame spacing equidistant.

But my Voigtlaender Bessa II, for instance, has no winding mechanic at all, other than manually lining up the number printed on the backing paper with the red peek window. And in that case, those numbers on the paper will dictate my frame spacing.
 
The OP's confusion is understandable. Taking poor approximations as real dimensions is an unfortunate consequence of widespread ignorance. As for paranoia, there's a lot of it going around these days.
Heh.. yeah. What really got me is the fact that Fujica has both a "6x8 professional" and "6x9 professional" labeled camera.

And confusingly, the 6x9 is the one with a 8cm frame-width. Ha ha.

I guess camera manufacturers are not that much different from lumber yards that sell "2x4 lumber" that is distinctly not 2x4 inch. Not by a long shot.

You would think that the cultural stereotype of Japanese and German precision would lead to exact specs on cameras.
 
I guess camera manufacturers are not that much different from lumber yards that sell "2x4 lumber" that is distinctly not 2x4 inch. Not by a long shot

The 2"x4" sizing actually relates historically to the wood in its rough form before it was milled to its final size.


As indicated above, the different spacing is probably more related to the need to use a smaller film gate in some mechanisms in order to ensure film flatness.
Of the various cameras I have, the film gate sizes vary slightly between cameras, but the spacing is in most cases equal and consistent within each individual camera, compared to the frame numbering. The only thing that varies in most cases is the space between frames.
A piece of film that is nominally 6x6 or 6x7 or 6x8 or 6x9 cm is quite difficult to keep tensioned and flat to the necessary tolerance unless it can be held against a fair bit of metal in front and behind. Different film paths influence how much of the camera needs to be pressed into that film from both sides in order to accomplish that.
The other influences that need to be taken into account include:
1) the fact that 120 film was also used to make projectable slides, and slide mounts always intrude into the film; and
2) the commercial photo-finishing industry in various parts of the world tended to use slightly different equipment, with different negative masks, printing on to different sizes of paper.
You might very well find that back in the times that these cameras were being sold mostly that a machine printer used in a lab in Germany would use negative masks of one size, the labs in the USA and Canada would use printers and masks that were sized slightly differently, and the labs in Japan would use printers and masks that were a third size.
As the big Fuji rangefinders were almost exclusively sold originally into the Japanese market, there is a very large chance that the film gate sizes for them were expressly designed to match the needs of the Japanese photo-finishing market. A really large proportion of what happened with film, cameras and photo-chemicals was designed pre-dominantly with the needs of the photo-finishing industry in mind.
The inclusion of a rough indication of frame size in a camera's model name was never assumed to be anything more than a means to differentiate between models in a line or segments in the marketplace.
The idea of a filed out negative carrier - one that reveals the entire image plus perhaps some of the rebate - is a fairly modern thing. Machine printers and enlarger negative carriers were expected to block a bit of the image area. If the photographer cared about that - and relatively few did - they would go to the effort of using an oversized glass carrier instead.
 

This reminds me, obviously the 6x4.5, 6x6, 6x9 formats are very old, but occasionally I have wondered, who took the leap of introducing 6x7 , 10 exposures on 120 ? (approx 56x68mm)

My best guess for the first 6x7 is somewhere in the mid-1950s among the: Combat Graphic 70mm; Omega 120 or Koni-Omega; or the Graflex RH-10 lever wind roll film holder. I believe all of these predate the Mamiya Press 6x7 back and certainly the later Pentax 6x7, Mamiya RB67. However, maybe somebody knows an even earlier 6x7 example.

I don't know exactly when Graflex introduced the RH-10 or lever wind backs; I have never heard of a Graflex knob wind holder in 10 exp, and do not think there was one.
 
Linhof was pushing their version of 6x7 by sometime in the 50s. They labeled it as 56x72 rather than 6x7.
 
I was also curious about the actual frame size a while ago. At the time, I even measured the 6x9 negative taken with my Fujifilm GW690 camera. It measured 56 x 85 mm. My 6x6 cameras produced frames measuring between 56x56 mm and 58x58 mm (rangefinder).

Here is the note I wrote at the time:

35mm
24x36 mm 864 sq.mm

Crop digital medium format sensor
33x44 mm

Phase One (digital)
53.4x40 mm

6x4.5
56x42 mm 2352 sq.mm
(2.7x as large as 35mm format)

6x6
56x56 mm 3136 sq.mm
(3.6x as large as 35mm format)

6x7
56x67 mm 3752 sq. mm.
(4.3x as large as 35mm format; 1.6x larger than 6x4.5)

6x9
56x85 mm
 
4.5 is 41.5mm I think usually.