About photopolymer intaglio and getting a press

[richyd]

Thanks for the info. Makes sense to use a ready made up lamp unit. According to Toyobo, whose plates I would be using unless I go the DIY route of polymer film and substrate, they are sensitive in the 300-400nm range so quite broad. In that case I could go for a 390nm lamp, a bit cheaper. The times I was getting using the face lamp was around 2.5 minutes.

 

[Cinda Berry]

Have been mulling this over.

Couldn't one include a pure white border or frame around an image in the image file before printing direct to plate?

The intention is to have a plate mark in the paper around my images...therefore...theory being...if you made a border of hardened photopolymer around the image, it would provide support for fine details along the edges of the image.

When the plate is trimmed to final size, just include the border as the plate mark area.

Make sense?

Hi Murray, I have been following your Facebook comments as I am also learning how to use E9220.

I use PETG plates which have been beveled (with a sandpaper block) on one side to approx 60 degrees. After developing the plate and before film is hardened, I run a small Exacto blade along the bevel. Excess film comes off smoothly and the film stays on right to the edge of the plate. This avoids the cracking and/or the ridge where the film ends.

 

[MurrayMinchin]

Hi Murray, I have been following your Facebook comments as I am also learning how to use E9220.

I use PETG plates which have been beveled (with a sandpaper block) on one side to approx 60 degrees. After developing the plate and before film is hardened, I run a small Exacto blade along the bevel. Excess film comes off smoothly and the film stays on right to the edge of the plate. This avoids the cracking and/or the ridge where the film ends.

Hi Cinda...you sure waited long enough for your first post here!

I'll have to try that 60-ish degree angle tip for trimming the photopolymer to the size of the plate once things "get serious".

For recent tests I've been cutting the E9220 smaller than the plate. My last guesstimate at washing out resulted in pretty much bullet proof photopolymer edges where you have to really dig & pull at an edge to get it to flake, and even at the corners while flexing the plate it takes a good bit of effort to make it chip.

Used 5% sodium carbonate @ 65 degrees F (basement in winter darkroom) for 3 minutes while using a hake brush after 30 seconds. Dried it via blotting and 5 minutes with a hairdryer on high, then back under the UV light for 2 minutes. (The technical data sheet for Eternal E9220 advises a shockingly dilute & hot washout for a mere 60 to 70 seconds).

*WARNING* Total newbie to the process with no press to confirm anything.

 

[MurrayMinchin]

The experience of 'black' in photographic terms is a malleable thing, and trying to get three different examples in one photograph is nigh impossible...having said that...can anyone comment on the photo below?

From right to left is a selenium toned fibre base silver gelatin glossy print, the middle one is a hand coated salt print, and the one on the left is a hand baren pressed 30gsm moistened 100% mulberry bark machine made paper using Gamblin Bone Black thinned with plate oil from E9220 photopolymer film and a fine aquatint screen. Whole plate got the aquatint exposure, then the positive had a strip of ruby lith tape to see what 'max black' could be achieved.

Instinct tells me that my gravure black will get much better with a press and more experience.

Just how black are your gravure blacks?

 

[koraks]

Just how black are your gravure blacks?

Mine weren't a whole lot better than what you show there - maybe a bit more even. Having said that, I was looking at a couple of Paul Cupido prints about a week ago and the blacks on those were absolutely solid. Evidently I didn't press a densitometer against them, but they were as black as the black on any matte silver halide paper, and perfectly even without any white spots/specks.

Instinct tells me that my gravure black will get much better with a press and more experience.

I think you really need a press, yes. I never tried it by hand; the papers I used were a lot heavier, too, so it wouldn't have worked as well as it did in your case. Anyway, I'm sure you'll make lots of progress in the blacks department.

 

[MurrayMinchin]

Mine weren't a whole lot better than what you show there - maybe a bit more even. Having said that, I was looking at a couple of Paul Cupido prints about a week ago and the blacks on those were absolutely solid. Evidently I didn't press a densitometer against them, but they were as black as the black on any matte silver halide paper, and perfectly even without any white spots/specks.



I think you really need a press, yes. I never tried it by hand; the papers I used were a lot heavier, too, so it wouldn't have worked as well as it did in your case. Anyway, I'm sure you'll make lots of progress in the blacks department.

It would be nice to see some in real life, unfortunately, online examples are what I'm stuck with.

With a 27"x 32' roll of paper and a 13.5" x 250' roll of photopolymer film, I have the freedom to experiment, spin my wheels, test, and otherwise get comfortable within the process to my hearts content

 

[nmp]

It would be nice to see some in real life, unfortunately, online examples are what I'm stuck with.

With a 27"x 32' roll of paper and a 13.5" x 250' roll of photopolymer film, I have the freedom to experiment, spin my wheels, test, and otherwise get comfortable within the process to my hearts content

Do I understand correctly you are just using your hand to press the paper and getting this kind of results. What about a dry mount press? Anyone tried that?

:Niranjan

 

[Lachlan Young]

Just how black are your gravure blacks?

Gravure is capable of delivering essentially 100% K (400% in 4-colour) in a single pass if you do things properly. Etching presses deliver an enormous amount of pressure (and with enough power in their mechanisms to shear really serious size bearings if they jam).

 

[MurrayMinchin]

Do I understand correctly you are just using your hand to press the paper and getting this kind of results. What about a dry mount press? Anyone tried that?

:Niranjan

I think a dry mount press would only achieve a warm hug, not the paper fibre squishing forces needed to see the plates edge & surface embossed into the papers surface.

 

[MurrayMinchin]

...and yes, that gravure sample was done by hand.

I used a fist sized glass lid to a candle in a jar...smooth & flat with rounded edges. Covered the plate & paper with a 300gsm piece of paper, made sure things wouldn't squirm around, and spent about 5 minutes going over the 5x7 plate with firm pressure.

Not a long term solution!

Then again...Asian printmakers have been using hand barens for over a thousand years or so to good effect, so there might be some nuggets of wisdom in that realm which may be useful to making polymer photogravures. (Thinking thin, Kozo, Gampi, etc, papers here).

 

[MurrayMinchin]

Gravure is capable of delivering essentially 100% K (400% in 4-colour) in a single pass if you do things properly. Etching presses deliver an enormous amount of pressure (and with enough power in their mechanisms to shear really serious size bearings if they jam).

That's what I'm hoping for...bottomless, reflection free blacks that you can feel yourself falling into.

 

[koraks]

Asian printmakers have been using hand barens for over a thousand years to good effect

But with block printing, not intaglio.
I agree the hot mount press is a non-starter. You really need the insane amount of pressure that an etching press can provide to really work the paper into the plate.

 

[Lachlan Young]

That's what I'm hoping for...bottomless, reflection free blacks that you can feel yourself falling into.

Which means an etching press or access to one via a print studio. There are good ones that aren't hundreds of kg or enormously expensive.

 

[Cinda Berry]

Hi Cinda...you sure waited long enough for your first post here!

I'll have to try that 60-ish degree angle tip for trimming the photopolymer to the size of the plate once things "get serious".

For recent tests I've been cutting the E9220 smaller than the plate. My last guesstimate at washing out resulted in pretty much bullet proof photopolymer edges where you have to really dig & pull at an edge to get it to flake, and even at the corners while flexing the plate it takes a good bit of effort to make it chip.

Used 5% sodium carbonate @ 65 degrees F (basement in winter darkroom) for 3 minutes while using a hake brush after 30 seconds. Dried it via blotting and 5 minutes with a hairdryer on high, then back under the UV light for 2 minutes. (The technical data sheet for Eternal E9220 advises a shockingly dilute & hot washout for a mere 60 to 70 seconds).

*WARNING* Total newbie to the process with no press to confirm anything.

Thank heavens for your FB post and the info above. I’ve been developing plates the same way as ImagOn, i.e., in cold water and a 10% solution. Did not know that there was a data sheet available until you mentioned it. ordered a seedling heating mat today and hoping for drastically improved results. Thanks again.

 

[MurrayMinchin]

Thank heavens for your FB post and the info above. I’ve been developing plates the same way as ImagOn, i.e., in cold water and a 10% solution. Did not know that there was a data sheet available until you mentioned it. ordered a seedling heating mat today and hoping for drastically improved results. Thanks again.

Yup, I was trying the 10% solution as well (E9220 plates chipped easily and were flaky) then remembered they had emailed me the data sheet when I placed my order for the roll.

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5d95e2eaaf5055407adaaeb7/t/5ddd5be14996076584c1a101/1574788068985/eternal_448_english.pdf

The percentage, temperature, and time given in post #53 were a first try guesstimate stab in the dark...there's probably a better answer...

If seedling mats don't work, there are waterproof baby pig warming blankets controlled by a waterproof probe in the solution that should work better, but are more expensive.

Heat Mats & Thermostats - Kane Manufacturing Company, Inc.

Kane Heat Mats are designed for all types of farrowing: farrowing crates, free stall, comfort stall, etc. Our heat mats put the heat under the baby pig, where it belongs. They act as a draft barrier on slatted flooring, woven wire, and any type of coated wire or plastic flooring.

www.kanemfg.com

 

[MurrayMinchin]

Hi Cinda,

Realized I had made a MASSIVE error in that the usual sodium carbonate washout solution is a 1% solution, not 10% as written in the posts above.

Therefore, my washout is 3 minutes in a 0.5% solution!

My bad...