About photopolymer intaglio and getting a press

CreationBear · Oct 14, 2023

(Moderator note: this was split off of another thread and started out as a response to this post: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/post-your-woodland-scenes.161565/post-2731366)

Quite nice, Murray…I’d be interested in your experience with buying a press for your intaglio work, though…a quick web search turned up a few Italian models at a lower price point, but also a few that were the price of an SUV. It would be nice to learn what criteria folks are applying.

MurrayMinchin · Oct 14, 2023

CreationBear said:
Quite nice, Murray…I’d be interested in your experience with buying a press for your intaglio work, though…a quick web search turned up a few Italian models at a lower price point, but also a few that were the price of an SUV. It would be nice to learn what criteria folks are applying.

Thanks.

When I said "enroute" I didn't specify just how long that road would be, did I?

I've cobbled most of the gear needed by wandering down the enlarged digital negative salt print and kallitype roads. The last major item needed is the etching press, and maybe a point source UV light instead of the DIY UV LED strip light source made for contact printing hand coated papers.

Second hand etching presses are rare and expensive as you noted. A new one of this breed is totally out of the question.

To bring down the cost, I could make, or have someone (college or high school project?) make one: https://www.buildapress.com/ or, could order a small one from Quebec, but his only go to 15" wide rolls and are direct drive: http://www.micheldupont.com/etching-press.html

Using steel backed plates is also too expensive, so I'm looking into David Kachel's use of rolls of dry polymer sheets for direct to plate polymer photogravures: http://davidkachel.com/wpNewDK/?page_id=593

Still searching Alberta & BC for a second hand press, of the right size, chain or gear driven, at an affordable price, just in case...

So, the ultimate goal is printmaking ink on old world papers of character, but I'm a ways off yet!

CreationBear · Oct 14, 2023

Excellent, those are very interesting sites—it would be interesting to price out the DIY option, since I’ve got a friend who’s set up for CNC work. Otherwise, I’ll look forward to how things shake out for you—photogravure is probably my favorite medium, even if the overhead puts it out of reach for the foreseeable future. (BTW I think it was you that sent me into a shou sugi ban picture frame obsession a few months ago…definitely worth exploring for alt prints).

MurrayMinchin · Oct 14, 2023

CreationBear said:
Excellent, those are very interesting sites—it would be interesting to price out the DIY option, since I’ve got a friend who’s set up for CNC work. Otherwise, I’ll look forward to how things shake out for you—photogravure is probably my favorite medium, even if the overhead puts it out of reach for the foreseeable future. (BTW I think it was you that sent me into a shou sugi ban picture frame obsession a few months ago…definitely worth exploring for alt prints).

Me suggesting shou sugi ban? Not so sure...my wife does that with her woodworking, so maybe there was a cross pollinating idea shared there?

As to how much it would cost to build an etching press from the Build a Press plans, that's question #1 in the FAQ section...pretty sure these are prices in Canadian dollars from a few years ago: https://www.buildapress.com/faq.html

In terms of overhead, if using steel backed plates or photopolymer film from photogravure specific websites which sell rebranded rolls of film, it can get expensive.

In Kachel's ebook linked in post #525, he describes finding an appropriate film at 23"x250' for $230.00. The same square footage of rebranded film from a photogravure site was $3,000.00 and the same square footage of steel backed plates came in at a whopping $10,000.00

The added step of affixing film to a re-usable substrate is a burden my wallet can bear.

Have yet to order any, so can't confirm those numbers (he probably used the most affordable film and most expensive re-branders for dramatic effect) but the price of steel backed plates definitely held me back from wandering down the photogravure path.

I assume no responsibility for others choosing to launch off into parts unknown!

EDIT: I also don't mind supporting Kachel by purchasing the ebook. He came up with SLIMT & wrote about the primacy of local contrast and the concept of always going too far...three things which became fundamental to the way I work.

CreationBear · Oct 14, 2023

Excellent, very helpful information—while it’s honored mostly in the breach in the parts, there’s a point where ROI rears its head, sooner for me than most, perhaps. At any rate, I actually saw a YT video from a Scot who was feeding recently inked oil prints through his press to transfer to virgin watercolor paper…an option, perhaps, if necessity becomes a mother. Do check out some of the shou sugi ban frames on YT, though…really a unique look.

MurrayMinchin · Oct 14, 2023

CreationBear said:
...saw a YT video from a Scot who was feeding recently inked oil prints through his press to transfer to virgin watercolor paper…an option, perhaps, if necessity becomes a mother.

That's the whole point of the process...you make the etched plate, ink it, wipe off the excess ink, lay it on the press, cover the plate with moistened paper and several blankets to even out the pressure, run it through the press rolls which applies great pressure, and the paper is forced down into the plate and picks up the ink into the papers fibres. The deeper the recesses in the plate, the darker the resulting tones in the print.

The plate is then cleaned and inked again for another photogravure. People usually make small limited editions.

Not counting the 21st century stuff used to make a plate, the rest of the process has been used since the 1500's. Some papers and inks have been manufactured for centuries.

CreationBear · Oct 14, 2023

I’d definitely like to see side by side examples of copper plate, polymer, and the Scot gent’s oilprint approach…the latter of course requiring a bit of commitment since the inked gelatin doesn’t survive the “squeeze.” Very much looking forward to your getting further down the road!

MurrayMinchin · Oct 15, 2023

CreationBear said:
I’d definitely like to see side by side examples of copper plate, polymer, and the Scot gent’s oilprint approach…the latter of course requiring a bit of commitment since the inked gelatin doesn’t survive the “squeeze.” Very much looking forward to your getting further down the road!

Looks like we got split off from the main herd...It's nice & quiet here anyways.

Ahhh, think I now understand what you meant by "oil print". I hadn't heard of that variation of Gumoil printing before.

I too would like to see some examples of photogravures which were arrived at from the various paths available. I've asked at every gallery I've been to in Vancouver, and nobody has any. I don't get there very often as it's a 2 day drive south.

San Fransisco or Santa Fe might be the where to find the highest concentrations of photogravures on the western edge of North America.

Judging by how many B&W prints end up in the darkroom garbage can before reaching a fine print, me-thinks the cheaper route via photopolymer film self applied to a reusable substrate is the better path for me. If I used the super expensive steel backed plates, I'm afraid the temptation would be to say, "That's good enough" based on cost, not on whether I felt in my heart of hearts that the image had reached a fine print level of being finished.

Will see if making shou sugi ban frames is of any interest to my wife...maybe, juuuust maybe...

CreationBear · Oct 15, 2023

For years now I’ve tried to buy my wife a ClackaCraft drift boat, since I fly fish and she likes to paddle, but apparently I’m the only one who really cares about “together time”…

At any rate, Clay Harmon runs a few workshops on Sander’s side of the Blue Ridge, so I have hopes of getting some hands on time once I up my game a bit.

koraks · Oct 16, 2023

MurrayMinchin said:
Looks like we got split off from the main herd...It's nice & quiet here anyways.

I hope you don't mind!

MurrayMinchin said:
the cheaper route via photopolymer film self applied to a reusable substrate is the better path for me

That's what I did when I dabbled in photopolymer. Well, instead of a reusable substrate, I just used PVC or some other rigid plastic substrate, but a reusable substrate would work just as well. The process of laminating the film to a substrate is relatively straightforward, but it takes a little practice to prevent dust and bubbles from getting trapped underneath it. The water film method worked best for me, where I sprayed water onto the substrate, placed the film on top of that and then squeegeed out the water. Adhesion was done with heat from a hairdryer on its hottest setting. And a run through the press for good measure.

There were two issues with this, though:

1: After hardening, the polymer film tends to be rather brittle and this made it impossible to get really clean edges to the plate. Along the edges, the film would always flake off every so slightly, but even the tiniest ridge will hold lots of ink. So this tended to show up as a dark border around the print.

2: The polymer film is fairly thin; if memory serves, it's something like 130um. I always wondered, but never verified, if a thicker layer as found on e.g. Toyobo plates would somehow work better. I think I still have a handful of metal-backed plates in a drawer somewhere - I just never got round to testing it before I sold off the press. I had some problems with unevenness, which I realized later on (after selling the press) were most likely due to insufficiently collimated light being used during the plate exposure. But at the time, I thought it had something to do with halation or some inherent property of the printing plate and/or film used.

Anyway, today I still think that printing from a thicker layer (as found on the metal-backed plates) might work better because you can dial in the process differently, where you expose longer and also 'develop'/'etch' longer, for overall deeper intaglio, which would help optimizing dmax and perhaps also make the process slightly less susceptible to tonal fluctuations across the density scale (showing up as blotchiness etc.) Again, that's all ex-post hypothesizing, and I never really looked into it. But these are factors you may want to keep in the back of your head on your journey.

MurrayMinchin · Oct 16, 2023

koraks said:
I hope you don't mind!

That's what I did when I dabbled in photopolymer. Well, instead of a reusable substrate, I just used PVC or some other rigid plastic substrate, but a reusable substrate would work just as well. The process of laminating the film to a substrate is relatively straightforward, but it takes a little practice to prevent dust and bubbles from getting trapped underneath it. The water film method worked best for me, where I sprayed water onto the substrate, placed the film on top of that and then squeegeed out the water. Adhesion was done with heat from a hairdryer on its hottest setting. And a run through the press for good measure.

There were two issues with this, though:

1: After hardening, the polymer film tends to be rather brittle and this made it impossible to get really clean edges to the plate. Along the edges, the film would always flake off every so slightly, but even the tiniest ridge will hold lots of ink. So this tended to show up as a dark border around the print.

2: The polymer film is fairly thin; if memory serves, it's something like 130um. I always wondered, but never verified, if a thicker layer as found on e.g. Toyobo plates would somehow work better. I think I still have a handful of metal-backed plates in a drawer somewhere - I just never got round to testing it before I sold off the press. I had some problems with unevenness, which I realized later on (after selling the press) were most likely due to insufficiently collimated light being used during the plate exposure. But at the time, I thought it had something to do with halation or some inherent property of the printing plate and/or film used.

Anyway, today I still think that printing from a thicker layer (as found on the metal-backed plates) might work better because you can dial in the process differently, where you expose longer and also 'develop'/'etch' longer, for overall deeper intaglio, which would help optimizing dmax and perhaps also make the process slightly less susceptible to tonal fluctuations across the density scale (showing up as blotchiness etc.) Again, that's all ex-post hypothesizing, and I never really looked into it. But these are factors you may want to keep in the back of your head on your journey.

No worries on the move.

Thanks for the heads up on the possibility of brittle edges...will keep my radar up.

Kachel says Dupont's MM550 is 50 microns thick, which he believes to be rebranded and sold at a higher price as ImagOn HD. He considers it to be low contrast.

Kolon PK1550 is also 50 microns and considers it to be medium contrast.

Laminar 9220 (50 microns) and 9225 (63 microns) is thought to be high contrast.

He lists a few more as thin as 25 and as thick as 75 microns.

Apparently, one of the re-branders told Kachel, "You'll never figure it out on your own" which of course only lit a fire of determination in his belly.

Just figuring out the nuances of making a good plate is daunting enough, then there's the world of paper, moistening, inks, plate oils, wiping, press pressure, and more that I'm completely unaware of.

Love it!

MurrayMinchin · Oct 16, 2023

After a quick search, it appears a lot of people use the steel backed Toyobo KM73 (73 microns thick) for polymer photogravures...will have to experiment a bit once I get up & running.

koraks · Oct 16, 2023

Well, there you go - hazy memory. The film I used was 'DK3', which turns out to be only 50um.

Upon googling it, I found a writeup I did some years ago: https://koraks.nl/index.php?menuparent=15&page=12
Part of what I write on that page is probably superseded by current practices.
Part is probably pretty universally true.
None of it really stems from my own ingenuity; I just pieced together what I found on the internet and gave it a go.

TheYoungPretender · Oct 16, 2023

koraks said:
Well, there you go - hazy memory. The film I used was 'DK3', which turns out to be only 50um.

Upon googling it, I found a writeup I did some years ago: https://koraks.nl/index.php?menuparent=15&page=12
Part of what I write on that page is probably superseded by current practices.
Part is probably pretty universally true.
None of it really stems from my own ingenuity; I just pieced together what I found on the internet and gave it a go.

The two currently practiced workflows as far as I am aware is either doing the double exposure method that you briefly mention on your blog, using an aquatint screen and a transparency to avoid open bite, or doing direct-to-plate printing where you would forgo using the screen.
I have only really tried my hand at DTP (Toyobo, but I would consider looking at other brands) but like many of you I am experimenting with the dry films right now as well since I have access to a regular printing press again.
If anyone Is interested in a relatively cheap way to play around without the process I would highly suggest looking at the videos of Sally Hirst demonstrating intaglio printing with a craft press.
While not as sturdy and lacking features compared to a regular press they do offer an accessible way to get started without investing a ton of money or having to dedicate a lot of space. An added bonus is that you can easily find some local scrapbooker to take it off your hands if you decide that it is not for you or that you want to invest in something more substantial.

MurrayMinchin · Oct 16, 2023

TheYoungPretender said:
The two currently practiced workflows as far as I am aware is either doing the double exposure method that you briefly mention on your blog, using an aquatint screen and a transparency to avoid open bite, or doing direct-to-plate printing where you would forgo using the screen.
I have only really tried my hand at DTP (Toyobo, but I would consider looking at other brands) but like many of you I am experimenting with the dry films right now as well since I have access to a regular printing press again.
If anyone Is interested in a relatively cheap way to play around without the process I would highly suggest looking at the videos of Sally Hirst demonstrating intaglio printing with a craft press.
While not as sturdy and lacking features compared to a regular press they do offer an accessible way to get started without investing a ton of money or having to dedicate a lot of space. An added bonus is that you can easily find some local scrapbooker to take it off your hands if you decide that it is not for you or that you want to invest in something more substantial.

Veeeeeeeery iiiiiiinteresting...

koraks · Oct 16, 2023

TheYoungPretender said:
or doing direct-to-plate printing where you would forgo using the screen.

I understand DTP to be the approach where you inkjet print the screened positive onto the laminated polymer plate and then expose it.
The way I did it was to inkjet print the positive onto a regular transparency film, using the inkjet's dithering as a screen, and then contact print that onto the laminated plate. That's not exactly direct-to-plate, but it does still use the inkjet dither as a screen. So it's a bit in-between the options you mentioned.

MurrayMinchin · Oct 16, 2023

One interesting take-away from the video in post #15 is that she uses a buildup of thin layers on her press bed to adjust the amount of pressure the plate & paper experience, because the top roll isn't adjustable.

This would dramatically simplify any DIY attempt at building your own press (at 15" wide hers is too small for me) as the top & bottom rolls could be in a fixed position.

She used watercolour paper to build up the press bed. If going this route I'd use something with less 'give' which is uniform in thickness...something like hardboard, or sheets of polycarbonate.

She also only had room for one press blanket, so enough space for at least two blankets would have to be factored in to the design.

Hmmmm...

TheFlyingCamera · Oct 17, 2023

If you ever feel like combining a vacation with a photography workshop, I have a friend in Mexico City who does copperplate and photopolymer gravure printing and offers workshops, and I know a guy down there who has a setup that will let you expose and print copper plates up to 4 foot by 6 foot or thereabouts, if you want to go crazy with making some BIG gravures (he actually has a rig on the roof of his workshop with three giant trays on a rocker system for the acid etching step so he can work safely with good ventilation). I have no idea what he would charge for printing that big, but the possibility exists.

MurrayMinchin · Oct 17, 2023

TheFlyingCamera said:
If you ever feel like combining a vacation with a photography workshop, I have a friend in Mexico City who does copperplate and photopolymer gravure printing and offers workshops, and I know a guy down there who has a setup that will let you expose and print copper plates up to 4 foot by 6 foot or thereabouts, if you want to go crazy with making some BIG gravures (he actually has a rig on the roof of his workshop with three giant trays on a rocker system for the acid etching step so he can work safely with good ventilation). I have no idea what he would charge for printing that big, but the possibility exists.

Thanks, but the cost of copper plate photogravure puts it out of reach for me.

Going really big is also not my jam...looking for the primary experience to be holding an art object in the hands, not so much framed, behind glass/acrylic, on a wall. Realize people will frame them for long time viewing/protection, but the goal is to have the initial experience up close & personal, in the hands.

Would consider travel to a direct to plate workshop or private lessons if on the western-ish edge of North America. I'm tucked up under south east Alaska's panhandle on BC's north coast, so quite a ways off the beaten path.

I'm intending to follow a Mac > Epson P600 > QTR > Print Tool > photopolymer film (commercially available stuff for circuit boards, not the higher price rebranded stuff or steel backed metal plates) path, so my options may be limited.

TheFlyingCamera · Oct 17, 2023

MurrayMinchin said:
Thanks, but the cost of copper plate photogravure puts it out of reach for me.

Going really big is also not my jam...looking for the primary experience to be holding an art object in the hands, not so much framed, behind glass/acrylic, on a wall. Realize people will frame them for long time viewing/protection, but the goal is to have the initial experience to be in the hands.

Would consider travel to a direct to plate workshop or private lessons if on the western-ish edge of North America. I'm tucked up under south east Alaska's panhandle on BC's north coast, so quite a ways off the beaten path.

I'm intending to follow a Mac > Epson P600 > photopolymer film (commercially available stuff for circuit boards, not the higher price rebranded stuff or steel backed metal plates) path, so my options may be few.

Murray- there would not be any requirement to print that big - I'm sure that any workshop class would not involve printing that large unless you specifically asked for it, as that's very labor-intensive. I know from seeing his demo videos that Arturo (the instructor) normally teaches making plates 8x10 and smaller. The point in mentioning the size was that I noticed some folks here commenting they were finding a 15" press too small. A 48" wide press eliminates that issue . If anyone is interested in doing it, I can get the contact info for the workshop that has the massive press, or if you just want to learn on a small scale, I can definitely put you in touch with Arturo (he's hosting part of my conference that's opening next week in the studio space adjacent to his).

Bill Burk · Oct 17, 2023

I found a couple vulcanizing presses by the curb, the bed is almost the right size for 5x7.

MurrayMinchin · Oct 18, 2023

TheFlyingCamera said:
Murray- there would not be any requirement to print that big - I'm sure that any workshop class would not involve printing that large unless you specifically asked for it, as that's very labor-intensive. I know from seeing his demo videos that Arturo (the instructor) normally teaches making plates 8x10 and smaller. The point in mentioning the size was that I noticed some folks here commenting they were finding a 15" press too small. A 48" wide press eliminates that issue . If anyone is interested in doing it, I can get the contact info for the workshop that has the massive press, or if you just want to learn on a small scale, I can definitely put you in touch with Arturo (he's hosting part of my conference that's opening next week in the studio space adjacent to his).

Sounds like an interesting get together: https://www.fotointercambio.com/

Getting to the main issue...I retired early with a reduced pension and put a greater emphasis on time with family & personal pursuits during the working years, rather than accumulation of wealth. Not whining...it was a choice both my wife and I made very early in our relationship.

We have plans for several driving trips (south to New Mexico being one of them) so I'll try to find workshops/practitioners along the way.

In the meantime the Internet, books, and experience/experimentation will have to fill the void.

TheFlyingCamera · Oct 18, 2023

MurrayMinchin said:
Sounds like an interesting get together: https://www.fotointercambio.com/

Getting to the main issue...I retired early with a reduced pension and put a greater emphasis on time with family & personal pursuits during the working years, rather than accumulation of wealth. Not whining...it was a choice both my wife and I made very early in our relationship.

We have plans for several driving trips (south to New Mexico being one of them) so I'll try to find workshops/practitioners along the way.

In the meantime the Internet, books, and experience/experimentation will have to fill the void.

Yes- we're launching a week from today! I'm very excited. As it is the first time, we've of course experienced some partial successes, but we've learned a lot already and are planning to do it again in March of 2025 (date/time being one of the partial successes we've learned from!).

MurrayMinchin · Oct 18, 2023

koraks said:
...After hardening, the polymer film tends to be rather brittle and this made it impossible to get really clean edges to the plate. Along the edges, the film would always flake off every so slightly...

Have been mulling this over.

Couldn't one include a pure white border or frame around an image in the image file before printing direct to plate?

The intention is to have a plate mark in the paper around my images...therefore...theory being...if you made a border of hardened photopolymer around the image, it would provide support for fine details along the edges of the image.

When the plate is trimmed to final size, just include the border as the plate mark area.

Make sense?

koraks · Oct 18, 2023

MurrayMinchin said:
Make sense?

Not entirely sure what you mean; you mean you leave a laminated edge around the print, but allow the polymer to extend all the way to the edges of the final plate (after optional trimming)? Give it a try, but in my workflow, it was neigh impossible to get clean edges all around.

Here's an example:

Note how there's a narrow blank edge along the top and bottom of the plate. Especially the bottom edge was rather dirty due to crumbling photopolymer. Note also the black stain about one quarter from the bottom left corner, which is basically a rather large ink reservoir held by this crumbling edge.

I managed to clean the top edge a little better, but it's still slightly dirty.

It's all nowhere near as clean as the results I saw from actual copper plates without lamination (i.e. 'proper'/old-fashioned gravure).

MurrayMinchin said:
Couldn't one include a pure white border or frame around an image in the image file before printing direct to plate?

I suppose you could mask the edges of the plate, so that the photopolymer won't extend all the way to the edge of the plate. But then you'd still have a ridge where the polymer film ends and the plate continues. This will pick up ink and show up in the print as a hairline border, and there will be a slight difference in the depth of the intaglio depression on the paper. It'll likely be cleaner than the crumbly edge, though.

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