A question about future generations

[Photo Engineer]

Paul;

Thanks for an interesting post regarding your attitude.

I am doing something about the future of film and paper, as well as trying to elicit responses from others and there have been some excellent suggestions. Sorry you didn't read this thread that way.

I'm also sorry you found no way to contribute anything positive. No, I take that back. You did. You have suggested to us that a lot of people feel the way you do. Only history will judge whether you are right or not. Maybe others would care to comment as well.

PE

 

[Paul.]

PE, Refer you to my previous post page 10.
I do what I can to stimulate interest and demand for traditional materials from main stream suppliers which is where most of us get them. While they are still tradeing I will be buying from them.
That you make and coat your own emulsions is laudable but as you are at pains to point out it cannot be done for 35mm so is useless to the magority of those we are trying to tempt down the traditional route.
Your contacts at Eastman Kodak may well make you privy to information us mere mortals are not, however given that you are retired from their employ I sugest that companies like Ilford, Fotospeed, Kentmere and many others will still be producing traditional materials long after both you and I are long dead. It will be those we have encoraged down the traditional route who will continue the art, if there is enough of them there will be main stream companies supplying their needs. If not it will be their problem, I will of done what I could when I could.
Regards Paul.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Paul;

Several things here.

Your post on page 10 said nothing new that I have not posted or that others have not posted. Most notable is the fear of chemicals in society today.

I have no contacts at EK. I worked there and retired. I do live in Rochester and I read the paper. See my post on that today in another thread.

Regarding production, I hope you are right. But then IDK how long either of us will live. Again, see that other thread.

Last but not least, it appears that you did not keep your word. You didn't go back to the darkroom for therapy. (just kidding you a bit)

PE

 

[Martin Reed]

How about getting someone from Fuji, too?....

Must be worth exploring - let's see what Ilford's response is initially. Photo Engineer puts the territory in perspective by illustrating that it is not a level playing field among the remaining manufacturers - the point about obsolete equipment is certainly borne out by the last statement from Forte - they were obviously hanging on by a thread towards the end.

Although bringing down these (necessary) secrecy divides between the manufacturers is hardly an option, I'm going to carry on promoting an open forum between them and those APUG members that feel concerned for the well-being of emulsion photography (which surely should be all members?).

As a photographic dealer I supply chemicals for alternative processes to the UK market, and there are many people exploring the possibilities of alternative processes - from our sales of silver nitrate, ammonium ferric citrate and potassium ferricyanide certainly circa 1000 per annum in the UK. At the same time, over about 10 years I know of only 3 people we have dealt with who have actually produced their own emulsions - 2 of them were students, whom we supported by providing darkroom facilities, and one is an artist with scientific training combining emulsion images with other media.

So there is obviously an enormous gulf of knowlege in the essence of what comprises emulsion photography. Rather than talking about setting up alternative manufacturing, the first move has got to be improving the dialogue between factory and end-user. The manufacturers know what they're talking about, but the market doesn't! And for starters, let's take Simon Galley up on his offer of the Ilford (Harman) factory tour.

PE, thanks again for the positive comments re. the 'Silver Gelatin' book, it will be out again, but I will certainly call on you to overhaul the recipes.

 

[sanderx1]

Threads like this cause me to read up once again on the D-200's specs! I keep reminding myself "my Nikkor glass is good, my Nikkor glass is good...."

I was certain of the same until D-40 came out

 

[sanderx1]

George.

While I appreciate morse code, (learned it when I was about 11 and promptly forgot it), I don't appreciate how you plan to make acceptable 35mm hand coated film. I would be happy to give you free access to my lab for a full week for you to demonstrate it to me. I will, in return, show you why you are wrong.

The bottom line is that hand coated 35mm with any degree of quality, with a home darkroom is virtually impossible.

Best of luck.

PE

I don't think this is fair - coming up with 35mm that the rest of us are willing to use is certainly much more complex than comning up with large sheet film the rest of us would use. To use an analogy - to say one can't make home-coated 35mm is like saying one can't home-make good optics because you won't have the equipment to coat the lens. Which while is true, is not the whole of the truth, because you can have your optics coated by 3rd parties.

Similarily, if home-made 35mm ever happens, it will IMHO most likely be coated on a much wider 100 foot roll, which will then be cut into multiple 35mm perforated 100 foot rolls. That of cause very much depends on there being enough intrest in film surviving that there would be enough people doing this ... so far the sings are not really very encouraging for there being many coaters for any size of film.

 

[Simon R Galley]

Dear All,

An interesting thread, I would support an open discussion and would expect us to be willing and able to participate, but PE makes some very valid points about company confidentiality, as long as Martin and PE were involved ( as an FYI I have known Martin for many years ) and of course with Seans backing.

Like Martin said, take us up on an in depth factory tour...speak to some of our people learn about the processes. The offer is open, I know Martin would be happy to come, and I am sure I can pursuade PE to come as well, that way we really could all benefit.

Simon ILFORD Photo / Harman technology Limited.

 

[FrankB]

The Ilford tour is well worth taking, as I'm sure everyone else who attended the last one would agree. Everyone at the site was extremely hospitable and it was a real eye-opener into what goes on throughout the whole process. The attention to detail and quality control was astonishing!

It would be great if other manufacturers had representatives amongst the membership here on APUG.

Martin - I think you probably have more contacts amongst materials suppliers than most of us. Would you be able to contact any of them and invite them along? (If you wouldn't be comfortable doing so then I will try to make up a list and make contact.)

 

[firecracker]

Dr. Souichi Kubo was head of one of the photographic departments at Chiba. His wife (The former Miss Arai) is still teaching there, but he retired the last I had heard. This information dates from May 2006. I had a long conversation with visiting educators from Chiba at the ICIS meeting in Rochester.

I have met him and many of his students here in the US when he was assigned here for 1 year by the Japanese government. His base of operations was in Rochester as he studied US education in photographic science.

PE

Thank you very much for the info. Now I know where to search! I think there is more than one "Chiba" university (or a college that we also call the same), so I was so confused before.

So, you've got quite many future cadidates to be your apprentices to learn from you. Or they have already mastered the skills that you offer and taken off, I don't know. But aren't they interested in APUG? Do they come visit here at all to contribute their skills and knowledge?

 

[firecracker]

Must be worth exploring - let's see what Ilford's response is initially.

Yes!

 

[Photo Engineer]

Thank you very much for the info. Now I know where to search! I think there is more than one "Chiba" university (or a college that we also call the same), so I was so confused before.

So, you've got quite many future cadidates to be your apprentices to learn from you. Or they have already mastered the skills that you offer and taken off, I don't know. But aren't they interested in APUG? Do they come visit here at all to contribute their skills and knowledge?

That is Chiba university in Tokyo, I believe it is on the north east side of the bay IIRC.

I have no apprentices. I have students who attended a workshop and I keep in touch with them, but I need someone who is able to sustain a longer time than a week or a few days to learn as much as possible. This would be more than superficial.

PE

 

[Mike Té]

Among the best suggestions...

FrankB's suggestion to LOBBY the many manufacturers who may not yet listen to APUG is one of the best suggestions so far. Not just to let them know that their products are appreciated and will generate sales, but also so that they feel that it's worth continuing to contribute to a quality art that will remain in existence for generations to come. In that way, it may counter the "film is dead" hysteria that can permeate board rooms and stockholder meetings. Once a confidence in film is re-established at the "at-risk" manufacturers, a firmer commitment can be made. This hopefully will lead to commitment to renewal, modernisation of machinery and training of engineers and other apprentices. If a fear of the "end-of-the-film-world" continues to plague the industry, it will become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

There are alot of "heavy-weights" on this forum (I mean that in a good way... ); it seems to me that many of you might be able to have an impact by bending the ears of those with decision-making powers in these companies.

Make the calls, send the emails, butter them up with large fine art prints made from their products. Show them their support.

Start an official APUG lobby/action group.

Get more manufacturers in touch with the APUG membership. Ilford have engaged and this has brought mutual benfits. Fuji has had some limited contact. Several equipment manufacturers are members. What about the rest?

Do you have a contact at a photo-manufacturing company? Drop them a line and invite them to APUG.

Do you have a manufacturer whose products you would hate to see vanish? Drop them a line, tell them how much you value their products. Invite them here to talk to their customer base.

 

[Chuck_P]

The other day, in a similar thread PE made a point about people saying, but not doing. Now he starts ANOTHER thread wherein all the same people start saying all the same things about doing what they are very much unlikely to do!

I mean really; cooking up a batch of 120 in your kitchen using the carefully saved paper backs from past rolls? Shooting at speeds of ISO 5?

If we get to that state I think that APUG will have about six members remaining!

Exactly what I was thinking as I continue to read this thread. I understand the good intentions and even the enthusiasm for keeping it all going---hell, I love BW photography, and on a very limited budget I manage I might add, so pardon me if I'm done when they stop making the plastic stuff that goes into the back of my RB. I don't mean to sound resentful, I'm not, but I am litereally forcing myself to continue reading this thread. I very much appreciate PE's thoughts as I always take note of his words, but this thread really is meant for a very, very, very select few individuals who have the ability, time, money, space, etc, etc.... to keep it all going.

I continue to remain positive that I can shoot film for several, several years to come.

CP

 

[Chuck_P]

I just finished reading my post and thought it sounded more harsh than I intended it to---it is certainly intended as a civil response to this topic. It appears that I let the worst of thoughts get the best of me.

Chuck

 

[Photo Engineer]

Ok, but the other was a post IIRC in answer to someone on a thread, not a thread I started. I may be wrong, I would have to look it up, but I remember it as an answer, not a question. That and a conversation with Jon on chat started me thinking it over and that resulted in this thread. See the OP I made here.

And, this thread has gotten totall different, mostly constructive comments.

So, if you think it is a duplicate, well, perhaps it is. But, it did get some quite different and orginginal concepts one being the 'action group' that shold be formed to approach the major manufacturers.

In any event, if you feel that I've erred in bringing this up, sorry. I am very concerned for analog products. I'm addressing it the best I know how as I'm sure each of you are doing.

PE

 

[Michel Hardy-Vallée]

Meanwhile, all you people who complain about the problem of cooking your own emulsion seem to have forgotten that this will in fact create a new, albeit small market.

I can't cook an emulsion, nor do I wish to. But when people like PE can ramp up enough production to sell their precoated ISO 12 film or emulsion kits at the Formulary, there will still be people ready to buy them. Granted, the number of people doing it might not be larger than the number of Pt/Pd printers, but there will still be some material for the less technically inclined.

 

[Chuck_P]

PE,

I believe you may be right about answering someone else on the thread, my apologies. Seems easy to loose track of the thread at times.

My 2 cents on it is that I think talk of emulsion making, personalized coating techniques, etc.. and the like that can be done at home IF film dies should be kept in the forum for which it was apperently created, because, in reality, this is not going to be possible for a great majority of the folks that participate in this community. I don't think "Product Availability" is the place, as I look there to learn about news (good or bad) about the products that I buy, and how that news is going to affect photography in my life.

But I agree with you, I did like the suggestion about somehow getting folks like Kodak (and others) involved with APUG. I realize that it may say a great deal that more are not invloved, like Ilford.

Anyway, all in the interest and love for traditional processes ,

Chuck

 

[Drew B.]

I skipped the middle 13 pages, but pardon me if this has been mentioned before, either on this thread or some other place...but is there any list of available products (film, paper, etc) from the many companies still at work w/a film product line. ...and is this list kept up to date (products being dropped, products being re-introduced)? Include camera equipment in this. This information needs to be available to give out to new photogs or those coming back to film. I don't know if a committee of apug members can be formed to come up with this info...while not actually meeting up to discuss this...but I'd volunteer/help out if help is needed.

drew

 

[sjperry]

I like Drew's suggestion about a current list of products available, both film and cameras. That way new and current photogs can see what is available for their usage. Might stimulate some usage of lesser known products and manufacturers by those of us not totally immersed in the hobby/ business.

 

[Michel Hardy-Vallée]

I skipped the middle 13 pages, but pardon me if this has been mentioned before, either on this thread or some other place...but is there any list of available products (film, paper, etc) from the many companies still at work w/a film product line.

By itself, the Freestyle catalog is probably the biggest such list I know of. Adding B&H's, and J&C, Photographer's Formulary, Fotoimpex, Silverprint, Retrophotographic, Fothuis, FrugalPhotographer would give you all bases covered.

Plus, the Ilford, Kodak, Fuji, and other manufacturer's website have up-to-date information on their whole line of products, including some discontinued information. I find it astonishing that sometimes people wonder whether film XYZ is produced or not when they could just look up the manufacturer and figure it out themselves.

I don't think another half-baked and badly maintained list will be useful. Face it, we all know there won't be enough updates to this list, and it will forever stay in beta. Plus, the whole point of having a list of product is to buy them. Resellers and manufacturers have an incentive to sell. Ergo, the sum of their catalogs is the sum of what is available.

On the other hand, an archive that includes past and expired products, for historical and reference purpose would be an interesting addition for some. It's like having a dictionary: some of the words in it have long been discontinued, but there's no reason to throw knowledge away.

EDIT: I don't want to sound like I'm spitting in the soup, I'm just pointing out that the information is out there. If you want to make a list, you should model it along the lines of a critical bibliography: something that would help orient product choices rather than listing mere availabilty. How useful is it to know merely that Portra 160NC is in production if you don't know what it's good for? The Kodak data sheet provide enough info already, but aggregating a bit more practical experience would be very useful for some.

That's a huge editing effort, if you want my opinion.

 

[bherg]

Hello,

I dont really am worried over the future of film, but the future is at a crossroad. And when changes settles and the digitalizing of kodak is over, companys that still make film (i hope kodak will too) can addapt production after the demand. Those companys can work to get their profit and make more film.

Its like this all the time (not that i´ve been around but) vinyl to cd, radio to tv, tubes to transistors, analouge synth to digital synth and so on. None of that has disapeared but there where probably alot of worried ppl at that time to. Tubes that where discontiniued ages ago have started in production again, and now its the standard i audio and recording world.



I think the market will find it self sooner or later. especially when the digital hype settles and young folks that grew up with digital cameras begin to explore and find this wonderful thing called film.

In worst case everybody at APUG can pitch in a couple of grands and buy a coating machine and hire Photo engineer

Cheers Johannes

 

[PHOTOTONE]

I think the overall philosophy of the country, Japan, may keep Fuji producing film longer than Kodak. There is a strong tradition to preserve "traditional" methods of doing things. That is just my impression. Move forward but don't eliminate the past.

 

[aldevo]

I think the overall philosophy of the country, Japan, may keep Fuji producing film longer than Kodak. There is a strong tradition to preserve "traditional" methods of doing things. That is just my impression. Move forward but don't eliminate the past.

I don't think that impression is really sustainable by the facts. Mamiya and Yashica are out of the camera business. Konica/Minolta has dropped out of photography alltogether. Nikon is gradually exiting analog photography, as is Pentax. Fuji is discontinuing some of their B&W paper lines and Mistubishi is out of this business. Only the LF camera makers really seem to be holding their own. And I suppose the same could be said of Cosina.

As for Fuji - they invested several hundred million to expand their Greenwood, SC film-producing plant and then closed the plant the next year.

I could go on...

 

[firecracker]

I think the overall philosophy of the country, Japan, may keep Fuji producing film longer than Kodak. There is a strong tradition to preserve "traditional" methods of doing things. That is just my impression. Move forward but don't eliminate the past.

My impresssion is that when Fuji dies in the Japanese market, that's the end of everything for the people in Japan. Don't get blinded by some flashy new products by Fuji. That is not much of a good sign, but rather a posing, because the number of their production is so limited, and so is the sales. In reality, the Japanese amateur photo market SEEMS shrinking a lot faster than any other ones as far as I know (based on the trends and changes in the photo schools, camera clubs, etc). And some pros here that some amateurs have admired for longer than the last quarter of the century are now the leading figures of the new digital products.

So, I just don't know if there's any "philosophy" to protect and/or sustain one particular company in any business.

Someone on this thread has mentioned about the use of motion-picture films for still films, and quite frankly I belive there is a fair use in the U.S.movie industry, and that may not go down to zero. But the Japanese movie industry is not the same. We've got a lot of HD and other video-format movies today, and almost no feature films that come out in threaters use any film any more. This industry has moved pretty quickly because I believe it never had too much money to spend on any art and luxury (unless your name was Kurosawa). It's a pretty small and cheap industry, and you can sort of tell by looking at what most movie crews eat at lunch with their tiny lunch boxes...

So, unless Fuji finds its home somewhere else, I don't know what will happen, but that doesn't mean they are going as fast or slow as most people think. I'm just giving you my thoughts here to get a better perspetive.

Meanwhile it seems, it really seems that Ilford COULD have a better chance selling more in this market if the pricing and the selection of its products WERE more user-friendly.

 

[coriana6jp]

My impresssion is that when Fuji dies in the Japanese market, that's the end of everything for the people in Japan. Don't get blinded by some flashy new products by Fuji. That is not much of a good sign, but rather a posing, because the number of their production is so limited, and so is the sales. In reality, the Japanese amateur photo market SEEMS shrinking a lot faster than any other ones as far as I know (based on the trends and changes in the photo schools, camera clubs, etc). And some pros here that some amateurs have admired for longer than the last quarter of the century are now the leading figures of the new digital products.

So, I just don't know if there's any "philosophy" to protect and/or sustain one particular company in any business.

Someone on this thread has mentioned about the use of motion-picture films for still films, and quite frankly I belive there is a fair use in the U.S.movie industry, and that may not go down to zero. But the Japanese movie industry is not the same. We've got a lot of HD and other video-format movies today, and almost no feature films that come out in threaters use any film any more. This industry has moved pretty quickly because I believe it never had too much money to spend on any art and luxury (unless your name was Kurosawa). It's a pretty small and cheap industry, and you can sort of tell by looking at what most movie crews eat at lunch with their tiny lunch boxes...

So, unless Fuji finds its home somewhere else, I don't know what will happen, but that doesn't mean they are going as fast or slow as most people think. I'm just giving you my thoughts here to get a better perspetive.

Meanwhile it seems, it really seems that Ilford COULD have a better chance selling more in this market if the pricing and the selection of its products WERE more user-friendly.

While I agree with some of what you say, I travel enough and still find a great number of people using film cameras. There are alot more people using medium format that werent several years ago, probably this is due to the fact the cost of the gear is getting cheaper. All the pros I know in this area are using Medium or Large format film cameras. None of them are using digital, they say the dont feel the quality is there yet.

The guy at the Shinjuku Yodobashi said they are selling quite a few Mamiya 7IIs, actually currently back ordered on some of the parts, (mainly due to the sales), and at Fujiya Camera in Nakano, they said they are selling Large format enlargers as fast as they come in.

I think we will see still see a further contraction of the market here, but I think Fuji will be okay. At least they seem to be trying.

Lets hope for the best.

Gary