A question about future generations

Photo Engineer · Jan 20, 2007

Sal, thanks. The problem is that in agreeing with you about timing, if I were 2 generations later, I could not have been a photo engineer. Therefore, I couldn't do in the future what I can do now. It is a Catch 22.

PE

Sal Santamaura · Jan 20, 2007

Photo Engineer said:
Sal, thanks. The problem is that in agreeing with you about timing, if I were 2 generations later, I could not have been a photo engineer. Therefore, I couldn't do in the future what I can do now. It is a Catch 22.

PE

Yes, that's what I meant. It's a classic "ahead of your time" problem. Given you are the generation you are, you are a photo engineer and that it'll probably be a couple of generations until what you're trying to transmit will need to be received, how do you ensure the information is available at that time? I can only suggest you forge ahead while establishing some mechanism for reliably preserving/disseminating your work in the future. I don't know how you can best do that. Perhaps others here will chime in with viable approaches.

Martin Reed · Jan 20, 2007

FrankB said:
More?

Build a library of formulae and techniques here on APUG. Preserve the knowledge. With today's technology it might be impractical to have a coating plant with consistant quality on a small scale. We don't know what technology will be around at the point in the future if / when we need it.

Frank has it summed up with his 3 main points, but let's add in this one he made earlier. The time to pool resources to set up coating is further ahead, if there are real indications that the main manufacturers will fail or withdraw. But for the time being it would be very prudent to try to record as much information as possible.

Although a lot is contained in patent information, it is perhaps more the minutae known to individuals that is worth trying to record and classify - I remember an old story of Kodak employees being pulled out of retirement when the original 'Elite' FB paper was being designed. If there are only 200 engineers with this sort of knowledge, falling off their perches at an increasing rate, putting together a 'road-map' of emulsion technology as they left it would maybe be invaluable in the future.

Which begs the question, assuming some emulsion chemists and engineers are inclined to be part of this, generally to what extent can they legally divulge information? Perhaps Photo Scientist could advise?

Photo Engineer · Jan 20, 2007

We are allowed to show or tell anything in a patent or publicly disclosed.

However, technique and putting it all together to make it work in a home darkroom is the art of it all. Making it simple is the art. Etc. These we can discuss, as they are our own methods.

Few, if any of us will discuss this topic. AFAIK, there are only 3 of us posting on the internet.

PE

Martin Reed · Jan 20, 2007

Photo Engineer said:
...
Few, if any of us will discuss this topic. AFAIK, there are only 3 of us posting on the internet.
PE

Sorry for wrong title, Photo Engineer. Probing a bit further, would you say, then, that to set up coating plant is primarily a budget issue? Given the funding (which I'm sure will be huge), with competent chemists and engineers on board, could production of reasonable quality film be achieved from a standing start without having to buy in expertise and formulations from an existing manufacturer?

MattKing · Jan 20, 2007

Photo Engineer said:
We are allowed to show or tell anything in a patent or publicly disclosed.

However, technique and putting it all together to make it work in a home darkroom is the art of it all. Making it simple is the art. Etc. These we can discuss, as they are our own methods.

Few, if any of us will discuss this topic. AFAIK, there are only 3 of us posting on the internet.

PE

This may be part of the problem as well - until recently, there was little interest or research into developing smaller scale commercial production of the highest quality. After all, why would you develop a low volume "Kodak Gold" manufacturing line, if you can make more money with a high volume one?

Now that there is interest, there are far fewer resources available that could be devoted to it, and far fewer people available with the knowledge and experience who might be able to do it.

It may be a "magic bullet" type pipedream, but I wonder if it will take a discovery from outside the current technology to save film?

Matt

HerrBremerhaven · Jan 20, 2007

Photo Engineer said:
. . . . . .

As for using motion picture, I would say that Kodak and others will stay in film as long as film motion picture is around. The minute motion picture film sales start the drop that is being seen in consumer films then motion picture will vanish as well.

PE

Thanks for acknowledging Ron. The reason I brought up motion picture films at all is that there are a few preservation operations already active today. One is through UCLA, and I forget where the others are located. Seems to me there is much more interest (and funding) behind such work than there is in doing something about still films. So if the preservation goes to keeping motion pictures still available, whether or not new films are shot, that might be a source for film for still cameras.

Considering the amount of film used in India, compared to Hollywood, does anyone really see this completely disappearing in a couple decades? There are far more theatres in the world than can afford, or even want, digital projection gear. Also, judging by Sundance and a few other film festivals, colour is at the mercy (and eyesight) of the operator of the latest projectors; i.e. there are numerous problems still with this gear. Reading up on really costly high end HD production indicates this is at least ten years from mainstream (or wider) usage, and all this could change drastically in that time with other resolutions (2K or 4K) and technologies coming in . . . in short, many motion film makers are either doing a final film print, or shooting film as a start to future proof their content.

So in a world in which all still camera films disappear (which I still don't think is in my lifetime), I still see a need (or want) for motion picture films. Worse case is that several universities take over the preservation and production. So as far as what future generations can accomplish, here is my suggestion: get the universities doing motion picture preservation involved in still photo preservation.

Ciao!

Gordon Moat
Dead Link Removed

Photo Engineer · Jan 20, 2007

First off, the largest repository of, and restoration of motion pictures is going on at George Eastman House in Rochester. They have the original film from most Hollywood productions stored, on nitrate base even, right there on the premises on East Avenue along with George Eastman's home. They have a $5M grant for preservation of old photographic technologies, and as such now have a complete copy of George Eastmans notebooks. They have about 8 students now learning wet and dry plate, Daugerrotype and other methods of photography. I have a superb lantern slide made by the instructor that I use in my workshops as a demo with his permission.

Color motion picture film will have a life as long as there is a market, but B&W is quickly vanishing.

We cannot make color film at home by any stretch of the imagination. We might be able to coat an Ilfochrome work alike at home. I have hand coated such a material at Kodak and it is rather straight forward.

Anyone can be taught to make emulsions and coat them using simple chemicals and techniques in a small home darkroom. It is just about as easy as learning how to hand mix developers and fixers. You weigh out chemicals and mix them. The workflow is quite straight forward.

The cost doing it at home is mainly for the hot plate-stirrer you will need, and a coating blade if you go that route. You will also need a lab balance or scale good to 0.1 gram. You don't need fancy equipment. I did without the hot plate stirrer for a while, but it is a pain, and I did my first coatings by brush and got the expected quality which is not very good.

Starting from scratch, it takes one day to make and coat about 20 sheets of Azo type paper in normal grade 2 in sizes from 4x5 - 11x14. In 2 days you can have about 40 - 60 sheets of grade 2 and 3, and it will keep for a week or so with no stabilizer. If you have more drying space, you can make more coatings. That 20 sheet limit is mine due to space, nothing more.

The paper dries and hardens in about 4 hours, and can be processed, but I usually let it go overnight.

Simple dump and stir. Follow the cookbook stuff really once you are taught a few fundamentals. After that, you can get creative.

PE

HerrBremerhaven · Jan 20, 2007

Nice to know about George Eastman house. We should only hope for more similar endeavours.

I can understand the desire of more colour motion picture films than B/W films, so I guess the greatest chance of loss would be B/W emulsions in sprocketed 35mm sizes. Shame to think that all those old 35mm stills cameras might be relegates to colour films only at some point in the future.

So Ron, here is something you might be able to answer. I know that some commercial printing makes use of photographic like emulsions for printing negatives. This is another large world market. Some of those emulsions are for exposure under controlled light sources out of the visible sprectrum, or by exposure from lasers, though no need to get technical here. Since these commercial printing negatives are often quite large, would that be a source of future larger sheet films? Are the emulsions and films too different for usage in large format cameras?

Your descriptions of B/W coating operations don't seem that far removed from the platinum processes I learned several years ago, at least in the gymnastics aspects of it. That there are companies committed to many older alternative processes indicates some hope for silver processes in the distant future.

Thanks again,

Ciao!

Gordon Moat
Dead Link Removed

Photo Engineer · Jan 20, 2007

Gordon;

Laser emulsions are generally very low speed fine grain emulsions used with high intensity laser exposure. As such they are scanned to create an image line by line with overlap to some extent to prevent lines from forming.

At least that is my understanding of one type of process using lasers.

These emulsions would be unsatisfactory for general use due to extremely low speed. There may be others out there, but those are the ones I remember.

PE

3Dfan · Jan 20, 2007

haris said:
So, we should raise awareness of good old krafts, photography first, because we are interested in it, but let us try to preserve other things too. What kind of people we are if we fight only for photography and let other old krafts to die? Selfish?

We should try to show t oyoung people that because some knowledge and kraft is old it doesn't mean it is "old" outdated and it will make them outdated. We should try to show that those krafts, photography in first place, will only make them more interesting, more skilfull and more proud to themselves...

OK, now I am talking Utopia, but I can't help myself, I just love those old things, and photography is at top...

Regards

Ever watch Roy Underhill? He has a way of capturing an audience to explain old time woodworking. He even wrote a book about the method he uses to do so - Kruschev's Old Shoe. People can be reached about the value of old things but it takes the right skills.

firecracker · Jan 20, 2007

Photo Engineer said:
The equipment is so confidential, it is scrapped.

It is worth more as scrap than you can pay to own it.

It is anchored to the company property on concrete posts to prevent movement and prevent defects. You cannot pay enough to move it and the company won't let you use their plant.

So, there are a few reasons. The bottom line is that the equipment is generally either useless or destroyed. Some companies in financial difficulties actually use their equipment until it fails. Then they go out of business because they have no funds for repair.

I have seen the condition of the equipment of some manufacturers as it exists today. It is in pretty bad shape, considering that some was running at the time I saw it.

So, we are talking about the time bomb here, sort of. Aren't there any grants or any conservation programs to save them as what they are and have them repaired to work in a better condition? I don't mean to pick any particluar company for this, but don't we need to do something about them even far more seriously than we think we do? I really think this is beyond the product availability issue in traditional photography.

I remember reading you comment on Forte and other 2nd and 3rd tier companies; if a price raise drives the consumers of 1st tier products into buying the 2nd and 3rd tier products more, these smaller companies will soon overload their task, and their product quality begins to deteriorate. But if the 1st tier companies are already exceeding their limits by running their poorly maintained (or almost not maintained at all) old and beatup machines today, it seems there's almost no luck for the "future generations" to have anything good and usable in their hands.

Isn't this already a sucide ride? Are we the remaining consumers weighing too much on the tiny "lifeboat"?

firecracker · Jan 20, 2007

FrankB said:
I think the successful takeover and operation of a coating plant or high-quality / consistency home-coating of film is a much taller order, would be limited to a very small minority of the APUG membership and (while I understand your intentions are honourable) may not be turn out to be the best way of helping traditional photography.

I know I must be dreaming hard, but I believe that's the only way to do it in a long run. I also acknowledge your points and I think we all agree on them.

But one thing we don't know is that how much bigger or smaller APUG will get regarding this trend. I mean not every film photographer has to find their home at APUG, but it's certainly better to send a message across and get educated more efficient in a way as a community since there's no other sofisticated website quite like this. So, if more people join here, despite the language barrier or whatever, we may turn out quite big.

I think this is like, to some extent, voting because influencing and convincing the "undecided" "untapped" population seems to be the key to gain support and make a change. You and I are already in the game, so we have to have more people to get involved in the process.

Photo Engineer · Jan 20, 2007

firecracker said:
So, we are talking about the time bomb here, sort of. Aren't there any grants or any conservation programs to save them as what they are and have them repaired to work in a better condition? I don't mean to pick any particluar company for this, but don't we need to do something about them even far more seriously than we think we do? I really think this is beyond the product availability issue in traditional photography.

I remember reading you comment on Forte and other 2nd and 3rd tier companies; if a price raise drives the consumers of 1st tier products into buying the 2nd and 3rd tier products more, these smaller companies will soon overload their task, and their product quality begins to deteriorate. But if the 1st tier companies are already exceeding their limits by running their poorly maintained (or almost not maintained at all) old and beatup machines today, it seems there's almost no luck for the "future generations" to have anything good and usable in their hands.

Isn't this already a sucide ride? Are we the remaining consumers weighing too much on the tiny "lifeboat"?

I have posted several items on deteriorating quality in 2nd and 3rd tier companies, due probably to the effect you mention. They are ramping up and straining the facility.

As for coating machines, get Fuji to donate one to Chiba University. Professor Kubo or his wife might be contacts. He is retired and she is still teaching there from what I understand.

Kodak donated 2 coating machines. One to RIT and the other to GEH. Both are antiques. They wouldn't be worth anything but as an antique. Coating technology is totally different today than what it was even 50 years ago or 40 years ago.

PE

Jon King · Jan 20, 2007

3Dfan said:
Ever watch Roy Underhill? He has a way of capturing an audience to explain old time woodworking. He even wrote a book about the method he uses to do so - Kruschev's Old Shoe. People can be reached about the value of old things but it takes the right skills.

One thing I loved about watching Roy Underhill, is that he seemed to shoot the entire show in one take.. and most of the projects obviously took longer than the 28 minutes he had. He got more and more frantic as his time was running out.

Showing others.. and leading by example might not give immediate results, but I do believe it at least plants a seed. Some of those seeds will germinate. Some will blossom and grow into things the sower can not imagine. Roy Underhill did/does that. I think several people here do it too, whether they realize it or not.

Photo Engineer · Jan 20, 2007

Well, I wish I had an apprentice that had a lot of time so that I could teach him/her everything I know.

PE

sjperry · Jan 20, 2007

I think an overall view of the situation might be helpful. Years back, and as recently as 10 years ago, almost everyone had and used film cameras. That made an enormous consumer market for film. Hence the huge companies like Kodak and Fuji that cranked out literally tons of film. Now the consumer market, where the bulk of sales are, has largely switched to digital. Film sales have thus fallen off considerably. In this falling market we are going to have to expect that there are going to be fewer sellers of film in the future. We shouldn't necessarily be concerned about that per se, because there must now be a huge overcapacity of film manufacturing equipment since it was geared for a huge market that has diminished greatly. I am more concerned with getting color film in the future than b&w because I think there are a lot more small manufacturers of b&w than color due to simpler processes, etc. I suspect that even today the bulk of film sales is color. I am not sure if anyone other than Kodak and Fuji make color film? Those companies will make color film only as long as it is profitable, and huge overcapacity will make profitability more difficult. We should support any smaller manufacturer that produces color as well as b&w films, and is committed to servicing the film market.

firecracker · Jan 20, 2007

Photo Engineer said:
As for coating machines, get Fuji to donate one to Chiba University. Professor Kubo or his wife might be contacts. He is retired and she is still teaching there from what I understand.

I think you have patiently mentioned his name a few time to me, but I have not been able to find it at the website of the university. Could you give me a little more info on this? What department is he in?

Meanwhile I always wonder what all other photographers and photo-related people are doing in time of this crisis. One thing I know is that I cannot find anything substantial about them online for some reason, and they don't come here, so what's my chance?

DougGrosjean · Jan 21, 2007

reellis67 said:
Could not the advent of film have had this same level of impact (or at least something that comes close) on the glass plate world? It seems that many of the same arguments could be made between plates and film as are made with film and d****l, and look how long it tool glass plates to go away...

- Randy

Probably true - I have a photography book from Kodak, copyright 1900. It discusses what was all state-of-the-art then. The glass plate guys of 1900 are like the film guys of today, while the film users of 1900 were like the D users today.

It's actually pretty comical, looking at the big picture. Glass plates are still in use somewhat, correct? Film didn't kill them off.

Sometimes the past is a good indicator of the future.

Martin Reed · Jan 21, 2007

FrankB said:
.... best way to ensure that high quality materials are available for future generations is to support the existing manufacturers of those products by -

Buying and using their products

Opening channels of communication between the manufacturers and APUG

Raising the public profile of film photography by getting out there and being seen in numbers using traditional equipment

It seems clear that one of the biggest obstacles in this well meaning but vague discussion is that few of us have much idea about the film and paper manufacturing process and what it involves. Going back to FrankB's 3 (or 4) commandments, no 2 could be well served by the manufacturers running a 'question time' thread on this forum on a regular basis.

Simon from Ilford Photo is pretty much doing this anyway, but maybe it could be done on a timetabled basis, and other people from the Ilford organisation come on line as well. Ilford regard APUG as a powerful influence within their area of operation, so they would probablybe unlikely

Martin Reed · Jan 21, 2007

(cont)

Martin Reed said:
so they would probablybe unlikely

(ahem, hit the button by mistake!)

....probably be supportive of such an initiative. Maybe run the idea past Garry Hulme at Kentmere as well? Possibly also the people at Foma, as they're now becoming centre arena.

firecracker · Jan 21, 2007

Martin Reed said:
(ahem, hit the button by mistake!)

....probably be supportive of such an initiative. Maybe run the idea past Garry Hulme at Kentmere as well? Possibly also the people at Foma, as they're now becoming centre arena.

How about getting someone from Fuji, too? I can help doing that if we need a Japanese guy from that company in Japan, but Fuji promoting here or any other place in the global market may have someone else in that position who sits in anther branch of their offices...

By the way, thank you for replying to my earlier post of the "please-explain-this-to-me-like-I'm-a-5-year-old" question. Now I seem to know the situation a bit better. But I'm assuming I represent the mass who have no clue whatsoever, so I feel someone has to play that role on the discussion forum like this one.

Maybe we need a good article or something on this topic posted somewhere very visible. We know we don't want to create more fear about this because some people get turned off easily when they see and hear something very negative, but still, we need the truths out, so we can get more ideas from others to take some actions. And I agree with you that this has be more cooperated with and elaborated by the people from the manufacturers, etc if they are serious about what they are selling.

Photo Engineer · Jan 21, 2007

firecracker said:
I think you have patiently mentioned his name a few time to me, but I have not been able to find it at the website of the university. Could you give me a little more info on this? What department is he in?

Meanwhile I always wonder what all other photographers and photo-related people are doing in time of this crisis. One thing I know is that I cannot find anything substantial about them online for some reason, and they don't come here, so what's my chance?

Dr. Souichi Kubo was head of one of the photographic departments at Chiba. His wife (The former Miss Arai) is still teaching there, but he retired the last I had heard. This information dates from May 2006. I had a long conversation with visiting educators from Chiba at the ICIS meeting in Rochester.

I have met him and many of his students here in the US when he was assigned here for 1 year by the Japanese government. His base of operations was in Rochester as he studied US education in photographic science.

PE

Photo Engineer · Jan 21, 2007

Martin;

The problem about dissemination is manyfold here.

1. Some companies don't want anyone to know the state of their equipment.

2. The formulas may be antiquated and may embarass the holders.

3. The formulas may be worth a lot of money if sold.

4. The company, if defunct, may want to restart someday.

All of these and the extremes in confidentiality of the processes involved will prevent anyone from really publishing until things are closed down once and for all, and by then it will be that catch 22, where there are no engineers to get things up and running again. AAMOF, most companies only have technicians left, not engineers. This may be what is hampering the efforts of M&P in rescuing Azo paper from the dustbin of history.

I have been able to analyze your book from an engineering aspect. I mean no disrespect when I call the formulation part to be done from a technicians standpoint, which if done by rote will produce the intended result. I can read, understand and meaningfully alter the formulas to work far far better though.

This will be the problem in the future unless information gets out there.

Going on with that, color would be another step beyond into the unknown which I have not even addressed. I had to start at EK with basics, by handcoating, sensitizing, addendizing and testing a complete film and paper. I had to do this in B&W and color. And, my results were ''graded" by my supervisors.

I then had to do it on a coating machine.

It was like learning to fly. I've been at the controls of a military jet. I've handled cargo planes, but I'm not a pilot. This is the same with a technician and an engineer that goes across the topic of photo science and engineering.

I did pretty good taking pictures in the back seat of a jet, upside down, but I could kill someone (me) at the controls. Well, reading your excellent book, I can make results like you do, but putting engineering into it, I can exceed those results.

BTW, I wish it were back in print. I recommend it to all of my workshop students and carry my dogeared, bookmarked copy with me to class every day.

Regards.

PE

Paul. · Jan 21, 2007

Come on people, What is the point in a thread like this, 13 pages and every constructive idea someone has blown out of the water as un do able. Some here have a vast amount of knowlage in these things and boy do they enjoy impressing the rest of us with it, mainly in the negative vein.
Last time I stuck my head out of the darkroom the sky was not falling down and chicken likin was not hot foot on her way to tell the king.
THERE ARE STILL A NUMBER OF COMPANIES MAKEING FILM AND PAPER AND DOING WELL DOING IT. While the demand is there they will continue to do so, when their poorly maintained machines clap out those who have better quality machines will get a larger share of the market.
Simon Galley says film will not die, I belive him, if we continue to buy it.
I can get any amount of this film is dead bull shit in any high street store, why am I login in to an anolouge photography site to read it??? Seems to me that some of you have already given up and all you want to do is sit around here impressing each other with how you know it will not work and bitching woe is me.
There are some 18000 APUG members, is that all the anolouge photographers there are? I dont for one moment think so. So where are the rest? Getting on with it and not sitting around here indulging in pointless navel gazeing.
Can you not see you are doing a better job of promoteing digi than the digi people are with this clap trap, APUG is an "informed forum" SHAME ON YOU!!!
This is no way to promote interest in anolouge photography.
I can cope with this no longer, I am returning to the darkroom for red light theropy.
Regards Paul.

A question about future generations

Photo Engineer

Sal Santamaura

Martin Reed

Advertiser

Photo Engineer

Martin Reed

Advertiser

MattKing

Moderator

HerrBremerhaven

Photo Engineer

HerrBremerhaven

Photo Engineer

3Dfan

firecracker

firecracker

Photo Engineer

Jon King

Photo Engineer

sjperry

firecracker

DougGrosjean

Martin Reed

Advertiser

Martin Reed

Advertiser

firecracker

Photo Engineer

Photo Engineer

Paul.

A question about future generations

Advertiser

Advertiser

Moderator

Advertiser

Advertiser

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Privacy & Transparency