Haaang onaminut. I'm not "denegrating" the accomplished. I'm pointing out the fact that most people these days looking at a start in photography have this point of view. This is the struggle film faces. Cudos to those that have embraced and mastered the realm of Photoshop (I'll be the first to say it's an extremely complex tool), but do you think that these masters of the digital realm can be lured back to film? They've made the move forward as they see it. More and more people are going in that direction because it is perceived as easier. How many people do you know actually "master" Photoshop? I would bet that the majority of weekend warriors muck around and come up with something they can be proud of. If you read my posts, you and I seem to be arguing the same side of this discussion- no need to get hostile.
Huh?
Have you read anything here I wrote that would even begin to suggest I am interested in coating 35mm film?
I have zero, zip, nada interest in doing so.
And if that is what would be required to still shoot film then I would go digi! The reality is that I have an investment in good quality Nikkor glass - and I will use it. Preferably with film, but I will use it!
I think that is the clear point I have been making.
Gentlemen;
. . . . . . .
I DO NOT WANT TO RELEGATE ANYONE TO THE DUSTBIN OF HISTORY. However, it may take place in spite of me. Believe me, you will not like anything I coat in 35mm nor will you come up with much better.
I want better than digital for the future. But all of us have limitations. We may need an emulsion preservation conference, but notes to fellow emulsion makers (not Kodak - they respond with indifference) are either unanswered or answered with vituperation. What is wrong with people? Why are the best emulsion makers here unwilling to respond in a civil manner?
PE
Making a paint or buying canvas and stretching it for an oil painting is far easier than making an emulsion and coating it in the darkroom. But you don't have to be an engineer to do either.
The big difference is that there are a lot of sources for learning how to make the paints and stretching the canvas, but few on making and coating gelatin. In fact, Silver Gelatin is out of print and it was the only relatively current book on the subject that I know about. That delineates the current level of interest to some extent here.
PE
I want better than digital for the future. But all of us have limitations. We may need an emulsion preservation conference, but notes to fellow emulsion makers (not Kodak - they respond with indifference) are either unanswered or answered with vituperation. What is wrong with people? Why are the best emulsion makers here unwilling to respond in a civil manner?
PE
As the author of the tome, can I put in a few pennorth. There are some members here trying to convey the situation of current emulsion technology, but most people don't seem to be getting it. The modern materials we have all been taking for granted come from a century and a half of industrial research, mainly kept out of the public domain, which has resulted in a technology of labyrinthine complexity. Secrecy has been fundamental to it's progress, and altruism has never come into it.
As an example, Kentmere in their early years were approached by an amateur emulsion maker who had devised a formula which had some characteristics superior to some of their own recipes. In order to use his invention he was given his own laboratory on the site in which to make the emulsion; Kentmere staff were not privy to the formula, and the emulsion maker was not allowed into the coating plant in case he gained an advantage in knowledge of coating.
If all the large emulsion-based manufacturers ceased, any new small enterprises would still largely have to re-invent this particular wheel. The resulting materials would probably be more basic in quality and speed than those we have become accustomed to, but if we want to work with emulsion paper and film then we would have to accept them for what they are, and work within their characteristics (work with the grain!).
When we did the 'Silver Gelatin' book, I experimented with coating 8x10" glass plates using both commercial print emulsion and home-made recipes. Technically they certainly couldn't compare with TriX, but the elation of conquering the limitations to create a unique image made up for that.
So what happens to a coating plant facility when another company dies? If they don't sell out their equipment, are they going to destroy it completely and act as if nothing has happened?
So self coating leads inexorably back to wet plates - are we seriously going to go back to that on a broad front?
If all the large emulsion-based manufacturers ceased...
I think this is the key point which a lot of posters on this thread are disregarding - as yet they have not. If we want quality materials to be available to "future generations" of traditional photographers it is in our best interests to keep these manufacturers going.
There's nothing wrong with having a Plan B, but while Plan A is still viable (as it is) for God's sake let's make the most of it.
For positive suggestions on easy ways we can do this see my post 'way back at the bottom of page four of this thread.
Like I said, people need to BUY the materials or they will be gone. It is that simple!
For positive suggestions on easy ways we can do this see my post 'way back at the bottom of page four of this thread.
....
We need to start to get rid of our manufacturer-dependent attitude. I know this sounds unrealistic, but I think the only way we have more control over the situation is for us to actually get our hands on the business, but the one for non-profit to not overdo. We have to be the one to be able to make the decisions to influence and sustain the market, otherwise, we will endlessly suffer from some sleep deprivation.
I agree, but your suggestions are only for creating the demand, I think. We need the supply, and that's what we've been discussing.
I think this is the key point which a lot of posters on this thread are disregarding - as yet they have not. If we want quality materials to be available to "future generations" of traditional photographers it is in our best interests to keep these manufacturers going.
There's nothing wrong with having a Plan B, but while Plan A is still viable (as it is) for God's sake let's make the most of it.
For positive suggestions on easy ways we can do this see my post 'way back at the bottom of page four of this thread.
Have you read anything here I wrote that would even begin to suggest I am interested in coating 35mm film?
I have zero, zip, nada interest in doing so.
Yes, you're quite correct. With one (fairly feeble) exception my suggestions are purely aimed at creating (or at least maintaining) demand.
My point is that with that demand there will be supply.
Ilford have restructured to meet the lower demand and are not only profitable but bringing out new products and restarting production of old ones. Kentmere are doing well. There are other threads on the forums about Agfa and Maco IR films making a comeback. Fuji stated their commitment to film a while back.
If demand dwindles away to next to nothing then, true enough, supply will dwindle right along with it. IMO the best way to ensure that high quality materials are available for future generations is to support the existing manufacturers of those products by -
- Buying and using their products
- Opening channels of communication between the manufacturers and APUG
- Raising the public profile of film photography by getting out there and being seen in numbers using traditional equipment
These are realistic positive actions that can be taken right now by any member of APUG.
I think the successful takeover and operation of a coating plant or high-quality / consistency home-coating of film is a much taller order, would be limited to a very small minority of the APUG membership and (while I understand your intentions are honourable) may not be turn out to be the best way of helping traditional photography.
Nevertheless, I feel that your third point is going to be difficult on our own. These companies need a more *public* voice- Marketing campaigns can reach alot further than we can as a group. I'd never even heard of Ilford, let alone Kentmere or Efke until I came to APUG, and I'd been a hobby film shooter for years. I always assumed Kodak was *IT*. I was familiar with Fuji as their main competition. I was vaguely aware of AGFA (mostly from watching F1 races and seeing the billboards). You know why- marketing and market presence. There are many film based products out there I *still* know nothing about. I assume I'l learn of them as I evolve as a photographer (if they're still there).
FrankB, With you all the way mate. Would add get traditional work seen as much as possible, exebitions,local craft fairs even loan prints to hairdressers and cafes to hang on their walls. Also be prepaired to offer your facilities to interestrd people to try anolouge. In my experiance once you have seen your first print come up in the dev dish you are hooked for life.
Prehaps part of the problem is the percived danger of useing chemicals with younsters being taught to be risk addverse from an early age, one cannot after all get selenium poisoning from toneing useing photo shop. Better then to forget the chemistery and emphisise the magic.
Regards Paul.
Here's another thought. I have an old Kodak 3A folding camera. The bellows is shot, the film size for it went extinct 35 years ago. It makes a post-card size negative which probably qualifies as large format but its not a large camera. It can be comfortably carried and hand-held. I found the user's manual on the 'Net one night and was astonished to discover that a plate holder had been available for these cameras as an option. OK, methinks, if I could somehow get or make a plate holder, this thing could become operable again.
At 53 years old and childless, I concluded after it emerged from receivership that Ilford would be my supplier from now on. It's selfish, but I'm not convinced that first-tier quality black and white Ilford products will disappear before I'm unable to lift a camera. If things start to look bleak before then, I hope Simon and his fellow directors give sufficient notice to permit filling one or more freezers which will last until my end.The nearest we'll ever get to that is with Ilford - for once there is a company run by 6 directors who know emulsion materials inside out, and worked their way up from the bottom in the original company. Forget about workers co-operatives, these products are too complex to make as a hobby or part-time career. And profit is the enabling force...
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