A Kodachrome type film formula!

[Christopher Nisperos]

... and don't forget the black & white option:

http://www.cinematography.com/index.php?showtopic=48841

 

[hpulley]

Sounds like the Possible Project to me ;-)

 

[Lionel1972]

PE, your contributions here are really invaluable. Thank you so much for being around. I hope someday someone will have the opportunity and financial power to make good use of them.

Lionel.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Lionel;

Thanks. And that is why I do what I do! I'm trying to preserve analog techniques.

PE

 

[michaelbsc]

At what cost?

Time for a "More Impossible Project"...
Who would buy Kodachrome-like film in 120 and 4x5"? I would.

I think this movement by Kittlegraphy over on the Kodachrome site is one beginning of the "More Impossible Project".

The real question is how much would it cost? Remember, Kodachrome has already failed as a consumer commodity.

The first question is whether it failed as a boutique product is because of the lack of interest in Kodachrome or because Kodak is abysmally structured to support a boutique product.

I suspect there's an element of both in the failure. It's true that Kodak, despite it's technical prowess and far reaching organization is not the right structure for manufacturing and selling a boutique film. Love or hate Kodak, and I don't care which, their organizational structure just is *NOT* the right one for that.

So, fast forward to a day in the future, distant or not so, where a small manufacturer is cranking out RonAChrome as started in the beginning of this thread. (Hopefully by then Ron will be out of the barn.) And let's pretend it's coated on a substrate that is stiff enough for use as sheet film.

And let's also pretend that either Kittlegraphy has his line running smoothly, or we've learned how to process it in the kitchen somehow.

What is it going to cost per sheet of 4x5? What if it's packed in 5 sheet packages for $99 US, basically twenty bucks a pop? And you still have to get it processed? So the chemistry for that costs you another $12 for single use? So by the time you've figure in the Hazmat shipping and everything you've got $150 in five images? And you still don't have a final frame-able product to hang on the wall?

Are these outrageous prices? Are these even realistic prices? It's beginning to sound like the prices for Cibachrome. Hell, why not just expose Cibachrome in camera?

I picked these numbers out of thin air, so I don't have anything to justify them other than the experience of running a small business and being constantly shocked at how much it costs to get something out the door. And this is a stab in the dark at making a boutique product in an industry that I have no qualifications to be making anything more than uneducated guesses. I could be off by a factor of who knows how much.

If you were to reduce the volume even more, because folks won't support those prices, you'd be looking at producing alternative process kits that let people coat their own. I have real doubts about that.

 

[michaelbsc]

Sounds like the Possible Project to me ;-)

I agree. We need to make certain that the next few thousand rolls of "found" Kodachrome get due justice.

Manufacturing new film may be a Herculean task, but processing found film should be possible.

Ron, back in the barn.

MB

 

[Athiril]

Isnt remjet just carbon powder in a glue? (a glue that falls apart and dissolves very quickly in alkaline solution)

 

[Mustafa Umut Sarac]

Athiril ,

Try to find using movie films at the camera , threads. There is all formulas available to dissolve the ramjet

 

[michaelbsc]

Athiril ,

Try to find using movie films at the camera , threads. There is all formulas available to dissolve the ramjet

http://www.filmshooting.com/scripts/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=20919&start=0

About 2/3 of the way down the page. Look for a posting richard p. t. » Mon Aug 17, 2009 2:23 am

Gotta run. I haven't read this thoroughly yet. It may or may not be useful.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Actually Michael, you are not totally wrong. This film will be expensive and labor intensive to make, but covering the development costs will add to the sale price. Then, tack on processing! No, you won't get this for a low low price. A B&W film made by these methods could run as high as $5 per 4x5 sheet.

That is one of the problems of sustaining any analog product. It takes a huge physical plant and a huge staff of trained people even if you are making small runs.

The future may be in hand made products, as I have said before.

PE

 

[bwfans]

Answering two questions here:

... You must divide the color developer into 3 parts and add the cyan, magenta and yellow couplers to those 3 parts as outlined in the patent to Bent and Mowrey. There are 3 couplers given there, but others can be used. The problem is getting them and paying for them.

... red reexpose, red/cyan develop, wash, blue reexpose, blue/yellow develop, wash, fog and green/magenta develop, wash, then finish with the rest of the E6 process. It is actually that simple and is possible!

PE

I really appreciate PE's help and especially the effort on preserving analog photography.

My questions are, does that means the only (mainly) chemicals required to have color image are cyan couplers, magenta couplers, and yellow couplers in additional to E-6 chemicals?

What are cyan, magenta, and yellow couplers? Who manufactures/distributes/retails them ? Is it affordable? If nowhere to buy or too expensive, any alternatives?

(I hope those cyan/magenta/yellow couplers can be found in the inkjet cartridges inside the Epson printer sitting in front of me . )

 

[michaelbsc]

Anyhow after rem-jet removal, you then develop in E6 1st developer, wash, red reexpose, red/cyan develop, wash, blue reexpose, blue/yellow develop, wash, fog and green/magenta develop, wash, then finish with the rest of the E6 process.

OK, let me ask some questions. But first let me rewrite the steps.

01) rem-jet removal
02) develop in E6 1st developer
03) wash
04) red reexpose
05) red/cyan develop
06) wash
07) blue reexpose
08) blue/yellow develop
09) wash
10) fog
11) green/magenta develop
12) wash
13-18)then finish with the rest of the E6 process (I'll straighten this out later).

Step 04, red reexpose is done through the back of the film? Through the side where we just recently removed the rem-jet backing? Yes or no?

And is it important to protect the other side, which ever side is the other side, from exposure to the light at this stage?

And this is done with red light of a certain frequency? Or with white light?

MB

 

[michaelbsc]

(I hope those cyan/magenta/yellow couplers can be found in the inkjet cartridges inside the Epson printer sitting in front of me . )

Man wouldn't that be just too sweet. I doubt it, but if so I'm buying ink jets.

 

[Photo Engineer]

I really appreciate PE's help and especially the effort on preserving analog photography.

My questions are, does that means the only (mainly) chemicals required to have color image are cyan couplers, magenta couplers, and yellow couplers in additional to E-6 chemicals?

What are cyan, magenta, and yellow couplers? Who manufactures/distributes/retails them ? Is it affordable? If nowhere to buy or too expensive, any alternatives?

(I hope those cyan/magenta/yellow couplers can be found in the inkjet cartridges inside the Epson printer sitting in front of me . )

The couplers can be found in the Kodachrome patent by Bent and Mowrey which is 3658525 IIRC. If not, let me know. My search on Freepatentsonline.com keeps crashing on me with an error message.

They are NOT inks nor are they normally related to inks. These are colorless chemicals that become dyes when treated with film in the presence of a color developer.

PE

 

[Photo Engineer]

The red reexposure is done through the base from which the rem-jet was just removed.

The front side must be protected!

The red exposure nominally uses a WR70 red filter, and the intensity and time must be such that the other layers are not fogged.

The blue exposure is also a WR filter, and must be carefully controlled to prevent fogging the green layer.

PE

 

[Mustafa Umut Sarac]

Ron ,

Try google patents or uspto.gov server but its a pain to find the suitable plug in to watch images with goverment site. So google patents is best but its search engine is not correct I guess. It can give unrelated documents but not whatever you want. You must indicate the years at below and get tired , furious after few hours.

Lets ask the right question , what gives velvia , velvia look , kodachrome , kodachrome look.

I had been asked before to create the inkjet inks from kodachrome formulas.

Lets get practical , If we treat these colorless inks with developer and get the real colors and if we do every photoshop trick , do we get kodachrome look print ?

Or do we need extra step and make rgb kodachrome gel coated filters and tricolor process and scan , than photoshop and print with kodachrome cmy processed inks.

If this will give me homemade kodachrome , lets start from somewhere.

I am talking about inkjet.

Umut

 

[Photo Engineer]

Umut;

The dyes give the Kodachrome look. With those dyes, you can recreate even digital Kodachrome. Blah!

I am having problems with the Adobe plug in. My search works, but I cannot see the file. I get an Adobe error message.

PE

 

[Mustafa Umut Sarac]

Ron ,

With a great possibility , your computer is infected. Some hackers or robots use flash plug in as the door inside the computer. So try to load flash , if it does not work , it does not work anytime , so you need to reinstall the windows. Youtube videos , nude art photography sites are responsible.

Yes , I want my kodachrome back with chemistry and some computer , mechanics replaces the hard work.
So you are the expert and became dominant force and responsible person from experimenters.
Please tell us how can we color these colorless inks , how we will prepare the colorless inks and color them.
Patents are for skilled persons and we are the least on this subject.
Some can be toxic , some can have no needed to contact with air , temperatures , processes and the mixing procedure , ...... etc etc.

Umut

 

[Photo Engineer]

You dissolve the coupler in a solvent and add alkali. Then add a solution of CD3 in water. Add some peroxide and watch the fun. Color will form instantly and get deeper and deeper. Use a Separatory Funnel with a solvent plus this dye mix to extract the dye into a suitable solvent such as hexane or benzene, and then evaporate the solvent until you have solid dye. You may have to cool the reaction mixture during dye formation in order to prevent oxidation of the dye or overheating!

Use as prescribed by your handy digital engineer. You are now outside my field.

PE

 

[Mustafa Umut Sarac]

http://www.google.com/patents?id=WlQrAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4&source=gbs_overview_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

 

[Photo Engineer]

That is, of course, the correct patent. And now, my acrobat reader is working. I had to shut down Mozilla and restart it, then it crashed and sent a report, and then I started Acrobat as a stand-alone program and within IE. Then, back to Mozilla and all was fine. My system checks free of virus contamination.

PE

 

[Mustafa Umut Sarac]

Be careful about flash if you use windows. If your computer starts to slow down , be sure something going on.

I tried to understand the patent and if I am not wrong , it gives developer formulas , not couplers as you indicate to me to prepare my solid dye.
There are many coupler patents listed and of course I dont have any clue which one used.

May be I am understanding everything wrong and these developers are the couplers but really I have no idea , I am sorry for the newcomer if I drive him her to wrong direction.

PEs posts are the reference , no way mine

Can you give me these couplers formulas and preparation details.

Happy New Year ! Its 3 AM here.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Umut;

The 3 couplers and 2 developing agents are there in the formulas. For example, OTOMH, the cyan is a Napthol derivative and the magenta is a Pyrazolone. The yellow is probably an Acetoacetate. I checked the formulas beforehand, and they are there and are complete.

PE

 

[Mustafa Umut Sarac]

Thank you PE , You are great.

 

[Mustafa Umut Sarac]

incorporated couplers is as follows: --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Color Developing Composition I

benzyl alcohol 0-12 ml. Alkali metal hexametaphosphate 0-3 g. Alkali metal sulfite 2-20 g. Tri alkali metal phosphate .sup.. 12H.sub.2 O 10-60 g. Alkali metal bromide 0-5 g. Alkali metal iodide (0.1 % soln.) 0-15 ml. Color developing agent of Formula I 0.5-15 g. Ethylenediamine sulfate 0-20 g. Citrazinic acid 0-5 g. Dithiooctanediol 0-5 g. Water to 1 l. __________________________________________________________________________

and sufficient alkali, e.g., alkali metal hydroxide, alkali metal carbonate, etc., to adjust the pH in the range of from about 10.0 to about 14.0. The alkali metals used to advantage to make the compounds of the color developing composition are sodium, potassium, lithium, etc. Typical color developing compositions used to advantage in processes of our invention for photographic elements that do not contain couplers are as follows: --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Cyan and Yellow Color Developing Compositions
Alkali metal hexametaphosphate 0-3 g. Alkali metal sulfite 3.0-20 g. Alklai metal bromide 0.2-5 g. Tri alkali metal phosphate .sup.. 12H.sub.2 O 20.0-60 g. Alkali metal iodide (0.1% solution) 2.0-50 ml. Color developing agent of Formula I 0.5-10 g. Antifoggant (1% solution) 1.0-40 ml. Alkali metal sulfate 0-70 g. Diffusible coupler 0.5-8 g. Hexylene glycol 0-20 ml. Diethyl hydroxylamine (85%) 0.3-10 ml. Competing coupler (e.g., citrazinic acid) 0-8 g. Auxiliary developer (e.g., 1-phenyl-3-pyrazolidone) 0.1-2 g. Alkali to produce a pH in range of 10-14 Water to 1 l. __________________________________________________________________________

In this composition, a phenol or naphthol cyan-die-forming coupler is used in cyan developing compositions and an open chain acyl acetamide type yellow-dye-forming coupler is used in yellow developing compositions. Antifoggants, such as, 5-nitrobenzimidazole, 5-nitrobenzimidazole-6-nitrate, etc., are used to advantage as the antifoggant. Any of the alkalis used in photograPhic developer solutions are used to advantage in the color developing composition including alkali metal hydroxides, alkali metal carbonates, borax, etc. The alkali metals used to advantage to make the compounds of the cyan and yellow color developing compositions and the following magenta color developing composition are sodium, potassium and lithium.

MAGENTA COLOR DEVELOPING COMPOSITIONS
These are the same as the cyan and yellow developing compositions, except that they do not contain an auxiliary developing agent or any antifogging agent, but they do contain in addition to the cOmponents listed above:

Alkali metal thiocyanate 0.3- 5 g./l. Ethylenediamine 1.00- 8 ml./l. A chemical fogging agent for silver halide 0-2 g./l. __________________________________________________________________________

Chemical fogging agents used to advantage include the nucleating agents of Hanson et al., U.S. Pat. No. 3,246,987, e.g., the amine boranes (e.g., trimethylamine borane, diethylamine borane, triethylamine borane, tert-butylamine borane, pyridine borane, 2,6-lutidine borane, etc.), the polyamine boranes (.e.g, ethylenediamine diborane, hydrazine diborane, etc.), a phosphine borane (e.g., dimethylphosphine borane), an arsine borane (e.g., dimethylarsine borane), a stilbene borane (e.g., dimethylstilbene borane ), a borazine (e.g., borazine, N,N',N'-trimethyl borazine, N,N',N"-trimethoxyborazine, etc.). When no chemical fogging agent is used in the magenta color developing composition, a chemical fogging bath is advantageously used just prior to the magenta color developing composition or, alternatively, the unexposed green-sensitive silver halide emulsion layer is made developable by exposure to light. A typical chemical fogging bath has the composition:

Alkali metal hexametaphosphate 0.6 g. Alkali metal hydroxide 2.16 g. Chemical fogging agent for silver halide 0.10 g. Water to make 1 l.

Any of the chemical fogging agents listed above are uSed advantageously in this composition.