A film for inside lighting

Helge · Jan 27, 2023

pentaxuser said:
Koraks or Helge OK here's what Helge said : "LED lighting is terrible. Very lumpy, uneven spectrum. Terrible for humans eye regulated hormonal system "

He used the word "terrible" and that sounds as if it might be serious for our hormonal system

So what limitations do we sensible place on LED lighting involved with photography such as: Not have any in our darkrooms, houses

Have limits on use and if so what limits It might have been a largely humorous comment and not meant to give us real concern for our hormonal system and that's fine but it is not clear to me that this is the case based on that one sentence

pentaxuser

It’s a giant and very complex subject. And you’ll find many scientists disagreeing on what we actually know for certain.
Hormones that regulate the whole body and its circadian rhythm, energy level, hunger and sexuality etc. is to a very large degree influenced by light.
The amount of it and very much the colour of it, and the precise composition of the spectrum.
For example, we have coevolved with fire, so it’s natural that when we sense that particular spectrum, we feel calm, cozy and eventually sleepy.

I wouldn’t use LEDs as safety lights in a darkroom.
But their use in enlargers is a new an exciting use for which their org. physical colour might be perfectly suited.

For lighting a digital set they might be adequate (still I’d prefer one of the black body radiator
alternatives. Or flash for photography).
But for lighting a film based shoot, they can very easily introduce a colour cast, subtle and not so subtle, that is impossible to remove well, because of the nice peaky nature of the colour sensitizing dyes used in film emulsions.

It’s less of a problem with B&W, but still might cumulatively offset metering, and could subtly disturb contrast.

eli griggs · Jan 27, 2023

Pieter12 said:
If the OP is confused by dials, the Zone system is going to send him hiding's under the bed.

Nah, he'll learn how to use it just fine or at least, enough of it, or better, in short order, it just takes a little practice.

redbandit · Jan 28, 2023

Pieter12 said:
If the OP is confused by dials, the Zone system is going to send him hiding's under the bed.

I think the Zone system is why most people have this stereotipical view of photographers and painters being alcoholics... After trying to figure out the zone system, i felt that painters had it lucky.

They could drink their paint thinner when they couldnt take it anymore.

BMbikerider · Jan 28, 2023

pentaxuser said:
Koraks or Helge OK here's what Helge said : "LED lighting is terrible. Very lumpy, uneven spectrum. Terrible for humans eye regulated hormonal system "

He used the word "terrible" and that sounds as if it might be serious for our hormonal system

So what limitations do we sensible place on LED lighting involved with photography such as: Not have any in our darkrooms, houses

Have limits on use and if so what limits It might have been a largely humorous comment and not meant to give us real concern for our hormonal system and that's fine but it is not clear to me that this is the case based on that one sentence

pentaxuser

If he is that worried about the quality of lighting he could always go back to a couple of candles or a kerosene lamp!

All the bulbs in my house are LED and the one I use for inspection of colour prints are 'cold' light around 600-650 degrees kelvin which is close to UK summertime sunlight in a cloudless sky. When reading in the evening I have found LED reading lamp to be more relaxing and not so tiring on my eyes., So Helge can theorise all he wants but the proof is there for me. (Has Helge any professional qualification over any hormonal changes/ differences with artificial light?)

When you think eyes have evolved in humans over thousands, nay, millions of years to be at there best in sunlight it makes sense to me to use a light source that is closer to the sun in colour and quality than some yellowish glow of a tungsten light which has got to be for the good.

foc · Jan 28, 2023

BMbikerider said:
'cold' light around 600-650 degrees kelvin

Is that a typo? Should it not be 6000 - 6500 kelvins?
Daylight colour film temperature is usually around 5400 K

Helge · Jan 28, 2023

BMbikerider said:
If he is that worried about the quality of lighting he could always go back to a couple of candles or a kerosene lamp!

All the bulbs in my house are LED and the one I use for inspection of colour prints are 'cold' light around 600-650 degrees kelvin which is close to UK summertime sunlight in a cloudless sky. When reading in the evening I have found LED reading lamp to be more relaxing and not so tiring on my eyes., So Helge can theorise all he wants but the proof is there for me. (Has Helge any professional qualification over any hormonal changes/ differences with artificial light?)

When you think eyes have evolved in humans over thousands, nay, millions of years to be at there best in sunlight it makes sense to me to use a light source that is closer to the sun in colour and quality than some yellowish glow of a tungsten light which has got to be for the good.

I use double wick candles and a gas mantle lamp thankyouverymuch. I’m not an animal.

The “I can see it myself” argument doesn’t hold water in the slightest.
You can feel fine with a diet for years until you get a blood clot.
You can live in radiation for decades and not feel a thing until you get cancer.
There are small effects that might not make you sick outright, but that anyone in their right mind would like to avoid.
And then there are accumulative effects that alone or in conjunction with other factors end up real bad.
You can’t really trust your eyes with colour.
As I wrote further up, colour vision is complex, not fully understood and in many ways a biological construction with only incidental relationship to physical phenomena.

LEDs are exactly not close to sunlight. There are dips and peaks in the spectrum and it’s sharply truncated at either end.

Black body radiation like filament lamps is the natural state of light and lighting for humans.
It’s the gold standard, because even if the curve can be tilted up or down, it’s continuous and smooth and extends into the infrared. It’s quite a lot like evening/morning light, and like fire.
If it tires you, guess what, it’s supposed to.
When we need to turn on light, we are supposed to be winding down and slowly get ready to sleep, or at least be calm and sociable.
Whiter filament light is also available. Halogen and high watt lamps are almost as old as filament lamps and before that arc light and lime light etc.

Is an anthropological education, as well as a lifelong deep interest in biology and everyday access to an MD, PhD good enough for you?

foc · Jan 28, 2023

Simple solution to stop second guessing artificial lighting, get a colour temperature meter, and if the budget can't stretch that far, try one of the phone apps.

Our eyes are not great at seeing colour temperature accurately but with a little training from using the meter the eye can learn and be better at it.

Chuck_P · Jan 28, 2023

redbandit said:
After trying to figure out the zone system, i felt that painters had it lucky.

I'd be interested in knowing how you have tried to figure out the ZS.

BMbikerider · Jan 28, 2023

foc said:
Is that a typo? Should it not be 6000 - 6500 kelvins?
Daylight colour film temperature is usually around 5400 K

Quite - a typo. Sorry

eli griggs · Jan 28, 2023

foc said:
Is that a typo? Should it not be 6000 - 6500 kelvins?
Daylight colour film temperature is usually around 5400 K

5600k to 6500k is considered 'daylight' in apparatus.

foc · Jan 29, 2023

eli griggs said:
5600k to 6500k is considered 'daylight' in apparatus.

5000 K: Daylight
5500 K: Average daylight, electronic flash

That was how I studied it many, many years ago.
I see from a Google search it has changed, I am behind the times.

Sirius Glass · Jan 29, 2023

For indoor black & white film I use Tri-X 400 shot at ISO 400 or Ilford Delta 3200 shot at ISO 3200.

snusmumriken · Jan 29, 2023

redbandit said:
After trying to figure out the zone system, i felt that painters had it lucky.

They could drink their paint thinner when they couldnt take it anymore.

?????
I’m only a dabbler, but this much I know: thinner for oil paints is turpentine or white spirit, both of which are acutely toxic if drunk. For watercolours it’s obviously water, but water in which you have rinsed brushes loaded with poisonous metals like chromium, cobalt, arsenic, mercury.

The zone system is just painting by numbers, for photographers.

Sirius Glass · Jan 29, 2023

snusmumriken said:
...

The zone system is just painting by numbers, for photographers.

redbandit · Jan 29, 2023

snusmumriken said:
?????
I’m only a dabbler, but this much I know: thinner for oil paints is turpentine or white spirit, both of which are acutely toxic if drunk. For watercolours it’s obviously water, but water in which you have rinsed brushes loaded with poisonous metals like chromium, cobalt, arsenic, mercury.

The zone system is just painting by numbers, for photographers.

Some of the more famous painters prefered to use what people now call "everclear"

Pieter12 · Jan 29, 2023

snusmumriken said:
?????
I’m only a dabbler, but this much I know: thinner for oil paints is turpentine or white spirit, both of which are acutely toxic if drunk. For watercolours it’s obviously water, but water in which you have rinsed brushes loaded with poisonous metals like chromium, cobalt, arsenic, mercury.

The zone system is just painting by numbers, for photographers.

First, you have to learn to assign numbers to the scene. If the OP is confused by the dial on a light meter, this could be quite a challenge.

pentaxuser · Jan 29, 2023

snusmumriken said:
?????
I’m only a dabbler, but this much I know: thinner for oil paints is turpentine or white spirit, both of which are acutely toxic if drunk.

Now you tell me! Just when I thought I had the solution on 31st Dec. last for being able to celebrate Hogmanay and afford both heating and eating

pentaxuser

Pieter12 · Jan 29, 2023

redbandit said:
Some of the more famous painters prefered to use what people now call "everclear"

Everclear is alcohol, wouldn't work with paint. Unless you're talking about drinking it. But then Absinthe was preferable

snusmumriken · Jan 29, 2023

Pieter12 said:
Everclear is alcohol, wouldn't work with paint. Unless you're talking about drinking it. But then Absinthe was preferable

I’ve been doing some web searching (because I’m in hospital with a broken leg and bored) and apparently it does work, but it makes oil paint very thin, quick drying, and liable to flake. The water content is a problem, so water-miscible preparations are more suited. There’s probably more to know about this, but it seems a terrible waste of both paint and hooch and is not - to the best of my knowledge - an established habit in Europe.

eli griggs · Jan 29, 2023

snusmumriken said:
?????
I’m only a dabbler, but this much I know: thinner for oil paints is turpentine or white spirit, both of which are acutely toxic if drunk. For watercolours it’s obviously water, but water in which you have rinsed brushes loaded with poisonous metals like chromium, cobalt, arsenic, mercury.

The zone system is just painting by numbers, for photographers.

Damar varnish is only partly resolved by white spirits, aka paint thinner, where good, turpentine, no that trash "Steam Dissolved" stuff, desloves it perfectly.

Just find traditional turps, which has a fresh, pleasant smell.

Artist turps that have been triple distilled is no better than the gallon can fresh traditional turp, so do no pay extra for it unless it's all you can find.

If it stinks, avoid it altogether.

No, the Zone System is no "photography by numbers". as all photographic images are the results of playing with numbers, but it is a good guide to help you exercise control of your photographic and imagining ambitions.

IMO.

eli griggs · Jan 29, 2023

snusmumriken said:
I’ve been doing some web searching (because I’m in hospital with a broken leg and bored) and apparently it does work, but it makes oil paint very thin, quick drying, and liable to flake. The water content is a problem, so water-miscible preparations are more suited. There’s probably more to know about this, but it seems a terrible waste of both paint and hooch and is not - to the best of my knowledge - an established habit in Europe.

Alcohol was-is used by some watercolourist for thinning water so the solvent, in this case, evaporates more quickly, allowing the painter to resume painting at a faster pace than water alone.

Alcohol is the solvent for Shellac, but it's use in oil painting is highly questionable and always experimental, with the permanence and results questionable at best.

As I wrote earlier, for oil paints, which have no been adulterated with anything, say, for example, waxes in water water-miscible (water mixable), oil paints, but, pigment and pure prepared Northern Europa Linseed oil, (never, ever boiled!) (Never ever RAW) Turpentine IS THE ONLY CORRECT Solvent for perminace in artist's oip paintings.

Vegetable oils will thin oil paints, be they compounded in safflower, linseed, poppy, walnut, etc, oils, and, expired or fresh olive oil is a great cleaner/conditioner for oil brushes but it's acidic and needs eventual thorough washing out, (some artists like myself, will store unwashed brushes in oil when finished for the daily and leave off till the 'morrow) with Ivory or Master's, etc, bar soaps or Windsor & Newton Artgel and similar conditioning and pigment & oil removers.

Stay away from waxes in oil paints, period, no matter the solvent and oil choices.

Everclear 95% is a good all around alcohol for mixing non-toxic shellac, & hand washing of shellac, or lightly blending with watercolour for quick, field drying of watercolours.

I have seen alcohols used in the darkroom, so chase those threads too

IMO

Helge · Jan 30, 2023

eli griggs said:
I have seen alcohols used in the darkroom, so chase those threads too

IMO

I’ve used isopropyl alcohol many times to speed-dry film. It works very well.
When I don’t use it all the time, is because it simply isn’t necessary.
I can wait the two hours for film to dry more often than not, and the alcohol is not free and can only be reused about ten times or so, before it’s too diluted and contaminated.

It’s essential for pre exposure wet treatment, when you want the film shot ASAP.

Ivo Stunga · Jan 30, 2023

Helge said:
It’s essential for pre exposure wet treatment

My first thought reading - how about I try this before I try squeegee? Could be valuable addition to my Antihalation layer removal process!
And I use it already as an additive to reusable rinse aid solution - helps to keep the stock fresh, aids drying and is good for ~15 films.

Helge · Jan 30, 2023

Ivo Stunga said:
My first thought reading - how about I try this before I try squeegee? Could be valuable addition to my Antihalation layer removal process!
And I use it already as an additive to reusable rinse aid solution - helps to keep the stock fresh, aids drying and is good for ~15 films.

Absolutely. Liquid hypering, antihalation removal etc. you need to shoot the film fast and develop. Especially IR sensitive film. Otherwise it’ll fog. You have about a day at most in normal ambient temperatures.
Fast drying before rerolling is important there.

Ivo Stunga · Jan 30, 2023

It's not so bad - IR sensitive films of today go only up to 750nm - very far from thermal, thus the temperature doesn't matter. Just keep it in the dark as with any other film.
Extra caution is only needed after that AH layer is removed - just load in darkness and spool that leader in too - it'll be great.

But yes - I'd rather respool my squeegee torture free film in 10 minutes instead of 2 hours.

A film for inside lighting

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