A film for inside lighting

[redbandit]

black and white is driving me nuts... i cant get a stinking good indoor shot. Not even when i am in a room with LED lighting.

Is there just some jinx on me, or do i need a particular film

 

[relistan]

It’s not the film. So probably best to post some examples of what the problem is that you’re having and describe what you’d like to be different about your results.

 

[Helge]

black and white is driving me nuts... i cant get a stinking good indoor shot. Not even when i am in a room with LED lighting.

Is there just some jinx on me, or do i need a particular film

LED lighting is terrible. Very lumpy, uneven spectrum. Terrible for humans eye regulated hormonal system and terrible for photography. Even so called high CRI bulbs.
Get some of the Aviphot 200 derivatives. It will make the most of warmer light, even if the IR component of a filament lamps is completely missing.
You could also try deep red filtered bounced flash combined with ambient. It’s practically invisible.

 

[guangong]

I don’t understand the question? If about exposure, my personal choice is Delta 400. I shoot a lot of pictures in coffee shops and bars, and occasionally music presentations in small venues. Cameras are non SLRs. Since I try to be discreet I use rf or vf, and subminiature cameras. I try to be generous in exposure since I have no control of what kind of lighting or lightbulbs exist. Basically, this kind of photography has a lot of misses, but successes are thus even more rewarding. One of my best pictures was taken in dingy NYC subway station with a Minox.

 

[pentaxuser]

LED lighting is terrible. Very lumpy, uneven spectrum. Terrible for humans eye regulated hormonal system and terrible for photography. Even so called high CRI bulbs.

What does it do to the human eye regulated hormonal system?

Thanks

pentaxuser

 

[koraks]

I suspect @Helge is referring to the influence of blue light on the human endocrine system. In particular it was found for instance that exposure to blue light tends to increase cortisol levels in humans. This mechanism is apparently part of the circadian rhythm and there increasing concern about disruption of this due to the blue light emitted by LEDs. If you look at the typical spectrum of a white LED lamp, it tends to have a distinct peak around 425nm. This is no coincidence, since most white LEDs are technically blue LEDs with phosphor coatings that convert some of the blue light energy into longer wavelengths. Still, a distinct 'blue peak' remains.

 

[redbandit]

im tired of the fact that everything either comes out with totally blown high lights,, or is looking to be what most exposure chrts would say is 3-4 stops UNDER exposed.

 

[Pieter12]

The spectrum of the light should have nothing to do with black and white photography, unless you're talking infrared. I believe you are jinxed.

 

[grain elevator]

im tired of the fact that everything either comes out with totally blown high lights,, or is looking to be what most exposure chrts would say is 3-4 stops UNDER exposed.

Show the negatives to us! Maybe you develop too long, maybe you have metering issues, maybe you'll need to accept that in typical home or pub lighting, some areas will be so dark they turn out blank on a negative, and some highlights like lamps and their surroundings will indeed usually be blown out...

 

[Marcelo Paniagua]

Agree, show some pictures of negatives or images. Difficult to say without seeing images. About 60% of my work is done indoors, either with existing light (sun through windows) or fill flash and I mostly use film @400 or @320 and I like the way it get exposed. I try to use leaf shutters on cameras that don't vibrate much (like tlr or folder) or rangefinders so I can get away with slow speeds. Also, it may not be related to exposure but to other issues, like development or used developer.

 

[Vaughn]

I think you need a particular film to be jinxed.

I would say you need to start working with the light...not just the room.

 

[Marcelo Paniagua]

I think you need a particular film to be jinxed.

I would say you need to start working with the light...not just the room.

Probably so. Also, be aware that certain light conditions will get the mentioned results will any film, like strong direct daylight on a otherwise dark environment.

 

[titrisol]

im tired of the fact that everything either comes out with totally blown high lights,, or is looking to be what most exposure chrts would say is 3-4 stops UNDER exposed.

How are you measuring the light?
are you developing yourself or sending it out?
A low contrast or compensating developer might be needed
it is worth to sacrifice a roll and test exposure for your development by going -2,-1,0,+1,+2 exposure and see which one works best for you.

And I agree with other people here, it would be best to see some examples

 

[pentaxuser]

I suspect @Helge is referring to the influence of blue light on the human endocrine system. In particular it was found for instance that exposure to blue light tends to increase cortisol levels in humans. .

Well Helge hasn't replied yet but if you are right then all I could find in relation to circadian rhythms was this: "There is some evidence that normal use of LEDs or screens illuminated by LEDs during the evening can affect the circadian system influencing sleep quality. However, the influence of different wavelengths of light on the circadian system is not completely clear yet. In addition, the activity being carried out on phones and tablets and computers also plays a role – watching an exciting movie or reading a thriller, for example, may hinder someone's ability to drift off to sleep."

The evidence seems to be limited as yet

Is this only certain kinds of LEDs or do all LEDs emit blue light even those in bulbs such as household bulbs that are in the warm part of the spectrum?

Thanks

pentaxuser

 

[Doremus Scudder]

I'm tired of the fact that everything either comes out with totally blown highlights, or is looking to be what most exposure charts would say is 3-4 stops UNDERexposed.

Not to be flippant, but it simply sounds like you need to expose more and develop less.

Your meter may not be well-matched to the type of light you have, which will result in underexposure. If your highlights are "blown" (I really hate that term...), which I understand to mean that they are too dense to print with the detail you want at a print exposure that gives you shadows and mid-tones you like, then developing for a shorter time is the answer.

Vary your E.I. and development times till you get results you find pleasing. Really, it's not rocket science; there's a large window of possible negative-density ranges that will give good results, you just have to hit the window.

Best,

Doremus

 

[koraks]

The evidence seems to be limited as yet

Concluding on the basis of a single search uit that there's not much information is kind of haphazard. There is a fairly rich body of recent academic literature that explores this issue.

Is this only certain kinds of LEDs or do all LEDs emit blue light even those in bulbs such as household bulbs that are in the warm part of the spectrum?

I've explained what I know about this in my previous post. If you read that, I think you can conclude what I'd answer to your question. In addition you could look up some datasheets of LED fixtures, insofar as they're being published. Sadly, most retailers don't release this kind of information, but you can piece quite a bit together from what is available. Short answer: most white LEDs currently have a significant blue peak. Even the warm white ones.

 

[eli griggs]

You can use any film speed you like, if your interior lighting will allow it, for example simple quartz work lights, which was a favorite of an architectural photographer I worked with on occasion, portable camera flash strobes, from Vivitar to Speedatron to Broncolor to today's common LEDS.

YOU on the other hand, must practice placing accurate values within the screen, positioning lights, reflectors, boards and screens, and hand Kettering, both with Flash/Ambient and ambient spot metering.

You must be able, for example, able and experienced in multiple flashes from strobe type lighting, say in a darkened room, that needs, say eight separate flashes to get accurate results and the ability to keep up with what you've done, which is surprisingly easy to loose account of in a long period of multiple strobings, even for the most experienced photographer.

Interior shots are no mystery, just a technical smorgasbord of opportunities to try out, inside your space.

If you bulk load 35mm, make up some 12 exposure rolls, using recycled tails and toungs, and keep a camera & meter, in use around your person for making readings & shots daily, with notes of what you wanted to what you printed, every week or less.

Train up with your kit and relax, leave the expert books aside and focus on making exposures with the most basic photographic method and you'll get the hang of it soon enough.

 

[Pieter12]

You can use any film speed you like, if your interior lighting will allow it, for example simple quartz work lights, which was a favorite of an architectural photographer I worked with on occasion, portable camera flash strobes, from Vivitar to Speedatron to Broncolor to today's common LEDS.

YOU on the other hand, must practice placing accurate values within the screen, positioning lights, reflectors, boards and screens, and hand Kettering, both with Flash/Ambient and ambient spot metering.

You must be able, for example, able and experienced in multiple flashes from strobe type lighting, say in a darkened room, that needs, say eight separate flashes to get accurate results and the ability to keep up with what you've done, which is surprisingly easy to loose account of in a long period of multiple strobings, even for the most experienced photographer.

Interior shots are no mystery, just a technical smorgasbord of opportunities to try out, inside your space.

If you bulk load 35mm, make up some 12 exposure rolls, using recycled tails and toungs, and keep a camera & meter, in use around your person for making readings & shots daily, with notes of what you wanted to what you printed, every week or less.

Train up with your kit and relax, leave the expert books aside and focus on making exposures with the most basic photographic method and you'll get the hang of it soon enough.

You could also do your experimenting with an equivalent digital camera, set to the various ISO speeds you might use for film. Then you will have instant feed back and can more easily fine-tune your technique before committing to film.

 

[eli griggs]

You could also do your experimenting with an equivalent digital camera, set to the various ISO speeds you might use for film. Then you will have instant feed back and can more easily fine-tune your technique before committing to film.

So true, the small digitals are today's Polaroid, unless you trust now, produced instant films, like Instax

 

[Tim Stapp]

• Exposure metering - Tangents

Exposure Metering Technique Camera metering modes | Exposure compensation more articles on exposure metering Exposure metering using your camera’s built-in meter The essence of achieving good and consistent exposure technique, is to decide what is the actual subject in the scene that you’re...

neilvn.com

This guy gives excellent advice for using light, modifying light and metering.

While he shoots d*g*t*l, light is light.

As stated above, if you have one of those modern cameras, use it as your Polaroid. I've done it many times. I'll measure with the light meter, set the modern camera and shoot. Chimp the display and when I see something that I like, I'll set the Real Camera and shoot. I waste far less film this way.

 

[Helge]

What does it do to the human eye regulated hormonal system?

Thanks

pentaxuser

Intrinsically photosensitive retinal ganglion cell - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

IR influence (from NIR to deep IR) on human biology is a very broad and in many instances still pending field of research.
That there is influence is certain though.

All light sources that humans have evolved with and known as main sources until now, has had an IR component, apart from CRTs and other rare kinds phosphorescence.
Just taking out IR, very likely has a negative effect. The magnitude of which we know very little about.

The excitation of various kinds of phosphors by UV or deep blue will always result in a lumpy truncated spectrum.
Human colour vision is, as many here will know, explicitly or empirically, very complex and in many ways an illusion/biological construction.
Often a given colour can be arrived at by a number of ways of mixing. On the surface giving very similar results. But often “feeling” off in some strange way.
A good example is the difference between real neon tube lighting with its very leaky primaries, and fake neon made with various types of phosphor LED.
They might look very similar. But anyone can sense a difference.

Now, LED of various types certainly has their place, this is not and should not be a religion. But LED is not the end all, be all of lighting many seem to think.

For photography the lumpy spectrum of LEDs often means that there is less actual light than you’d think.
Meters, especially older, can be grossly fooled.
And the sensitizing dyes used in film are also often on their own discriminating/peaky in their response.

This all ads up to potential “mysterious” intractable problems with exposure.

 

[guangong]

As already pointed out, a little experimentation is necessary along with a light meter. Eye and brain adjust to the relative intensity of light. Restaurants, bars, and coffee shops are usually much darker than they seem to the eyes. If you shoot often at the same place the camera settings will usually be the same. One exception for me is a coffee shop on corner of block with huge windows. There sun and weather do make a difference. I know exactly the settings for NYC and PATH subway cars.
I would also wonder about the OPs film processing. Of course one can always use flash indoors, but the pictures won’t look the same. Not better, not worse, but different. I haven’t owned a flash for many decades but that’s just me.

 

[eli griggs]

As already pointed out, a little experimentation is necessary along with a light meter. Eye and brain adjust to the relative intensity of light. Restaurants, bars, and coffee shops are usually much darker than they seem to the eyes. If you shoot often at the same place the camera settings will usually be the same. One exception for me is a coffee shop on corner of block with huge windows. There sun and weather do make a difference. I know exactly the settings for NYC and PATH subway cars.
I would also wonder about the OPs film processing. Of course one can always use flash indoors, but the pictures won’t look the same. Not better, not worse, but different. I haven’t owned a flash for many decades but that’s just me.

Interior flash/strobe work is at its best when the photographer knows what he has in the way of light modifiers and sources, ie, boxes, screens, domes, slaves or and radio & Bluetooth control, reflectors and black card, light absorbing panels, etc.

Professionals and skillful shooters, can visualize the coverage of artificial and natural light very well,band it's mostly a matter of experience and study, no intuitive abilities.

The most demanding part of the work is the gradual building of illuminated scenes, checking every step and bringing it all together, seamlessly.

Books, magazine's, videos are all full of interior shots, even if it's a matter of a large white reflector in a dilapidated cabin,with light streaming through the hole in the roof put there by a falling tree.

You, too, can do it and make it look splendid and all natural on film with the simplest camera and film matches.

Cheers.

 

[redbandit]

I dont have a light meter, i have been trying to pick one out that I can actually understand on how to freaking use. Once the online manuals start talking about turning 3+ dials about i start to lose focus and think about popcorn. Wont lie, it happens.


Ive been using a canon Ftb N and it does FINE outside. Although i did a test on my car tire from 10 feet. took a shot on the rubber side wall, inside the wheel well, and 1 on the hub cap.
The odd thing is, the shutter speed stayed the same but the aperture was different for each one. SO i wont lie, the meter may be on its last legs, or the light may have been quirky.

 

[redbandit]

Ive been using ariasta/foma 400 and eco pro chemicals. I have been using up the last of the exo pro powdered film developer before i switch over to the R09 one shot, at moment have 4 brand new little containers of it.

dont have any more film on hand, as i was waiting to figure out if there was a relatively affordable BULK roll of black and white film that does real well inside..