A Conversation with Kodak Alaris

[Ken Nadvornick]

I don't think it's about shutting up for that reason...

PM reply sent, so as not to further upset people...

Ken

 

[dehk]

Long Live Tri X.

 

[AgX]

So I question this breathlessly panicked doomsday attitude that postulates we must all just shut up, never make any of our new/old product wishes known, and buy as much of whatever Kodak tells us to buy as we can because the film world is about to go extinct by tomorrow morning.

The problem is that at least at the moment all those small enterprises are dependant directly or even indirectly on the big companies.

 

[PKM-25]

There is a somewhat sinister momentum that has been taking place in regards to the public's awareness on film ever since all the news about the demise of Kodachrome that Stone is talking about. He is right in that far too many people think Kodachrome being gone means film is gone. This is a problem for us film users and the film makers but it is a "Golden" opportunity for some other folks, Nikon, Canon, Apple, etc.

I have it on good authority that the only reason Nikon stopped taking film based entries in their long standing photo contest was purely marketing, to convince people that film really does not exist at all as far as they are concerned. They are not the only ones, there are literally hundreds of web personas that work very hard to keep people chasing the digital rainbow and do everything they can to say no, you can not buy film, you can not get it developed, you now have to use digital, you don't have a choice.

This is sinister momentum folks, these people do not want potential buyers of a brand new $2,700 retro Nikon Df to think that they can just buy a second hand FM2 or F3 and still enjoy film, they are also in a perilous market and desperate shareholder situation and *every* single time someone on a site like this one complains about what films they no longer have so why bother using Kodak, Fuji, etc.....it greases the rails for that sinister momentum and makes the jobs of the digital marketing force that much easier.

This is NO JOKE dammit, so THINK about this next time you ask for Pan-F in 4x5 or the return of Kodak E6. The best thing you can do as a film user to help market digital is keep asking for films that have been discontinued. Because you are making a potential film user feel like they are late to the party and all the good stuff is gone, so why bother.

It's completely baffling to me how some can not see this...

 

[AgX]

There is a somewhat sinister momentum that has been taking place in regards to the public's awareness on film ever since all the news about the demise of Kodachrome that Stone is talking about. He is right in that far too many people think Kodachrome being gone means film is gone.

Keep in mind that Kodachrome only had that iconic value in parts of the world and and thus its demise is only relevant to that fraction of the public.

 

[StoneNYC]

There is a somewhat sinister momentum that has been taking place in regards to the public's awareness on film ever since all the news about the demise of Kodachrome that Stone is talking about. He is right in that far too many people think Kodachrome being gone means film is gone. This is a problem for us film users and the film makers but it is a "Golden" opportunity for some other folks, Nikon, Canon, Apple, etc.

I have it on good authority that the only reason Nikon stopped taking film based entries in their long standing photo contest was purely marketing, to convince people that film really does not exist at all as far as they are concerned. They are not the only ones, there are literally hundreds of web personas that work very hard to keep people chasing the digital rainbow and do everything they can to say no, you can not buy film, you can not get it developed, you now have to use digital, you don't have a choice.

This is sinister momentum folks, these people do not want potential buyers of a brand new $2,700 retro Nikon Df to think that they can just buy a second hand FM2 or F3 and still enjoy film, they are also in a perilous market and desperate shareholder situation and *every* single time someone on a site like this one complains about what films they no longer have so why bother using Kodak, Fuji, etc.....it greases the rails for that sinister momentum and makes the jobs of the digital marketing force that much easier.

This is NO JOKE dammit, so THINK about this next time you ask for Pan-F in 4x5 or the return of Kodak E6. The best thing you can do as a film user to help market digital is keep asking for films that have been discontinued. Because you are making a potential film user feel like they are late to the party and all the good stuff is gone, so why bother.

It's completely baffling to me how some can not see this...

I agree with everything except the PanF+ in 4x5 part. Not only because that would be friggin awesome! But specifically because I don't think it's dangerous to encourage the current companies to developing new films, or to expand their lines, if they are capable and the market will support it. If they were able to produce PanF+ on a thicker base, make it properly and make it without re-doing the entire thing, they would, many people ask for it.

Adox is making new films, Ferrania is too, so I think it's natural for companies like ilford and kodak to at least look into new products even if it's only to a small degree.

Anyway I think as long as it's not LAMENTING and just "oh this film is so great, I hope someday they make it in X size" I think that's fine.

Also saying "man! Neopan400 was such a great film! But when it stopped being made I started using Kodak Double-X and that's GREAT!"

But saying "man film sucks now ever since Kodakchrome died" well that's a fools errand....

 

[StoneNYC]

Keep in mind that Kodachrome only had that iconic value in parts of the world and and thus its demise is only relevant to that fraction of the public.

I completely disagree, because people aren't that where a film in general, if you don't know that much about film, and you hear "no more Kodak Kodachrome" on the news, in any sense of it, most people immediately assume that all film is gone, since they don't see it anymore, it's not sold very often, there's no advertisements for it, and people don't generally see it being used. But yet the news reports about Kodachrome were all over the world, and many people from many countries that aren't in the no believe now that film is gone. In fact tonight I met a girl who looked at me and said "that's a film camera? I thought you couldn't even get film anymore, I saw on the news like a couple of years ago" to which I replied to film is still alive and well they're still making it that he's making you found, and you can mostly get it on the Internet, to which she replied "yea but where do you get it developed, I didn't don't see any labs anymore" to which I replied that you can go to CVS or Walgreens or Rite Aid etc., and she said "really??! Are you sure? I haven't seen any "labs"" ... I asked her if she had seen the photo centers, she answered yes, and I said well that's the lab, they just don't call it a lab anymore and often they mail it out to another location to all have the same processing done in one place to save money. She said "oh" and that was it.

I have this kind of conversation very very often....

 

[AgX]

Kodachrome is not that an icon in parts of the world as it is in the USA.

That a news agency reports about Kodachrome being cancelled does not necessarily mean that many people in that country can begin something with that name. I'm sure asking people here on the street would show that the majority does not know Kodachrome.

 

[Simon R Galley]

Dear Miha,

Its not an issue but just on a few points : KENTMERE Photographic did not go 'belly up' KENTMERE Photographic was a profitable company when HARMAN technology Limited bought it and it remains so to this day although now absorbed into HARMAN, KENTMERE Photographic also had a wide range of wide format inkjet products as well that HARMAN technology continue to coat.

The KENTMERE range of products including mono RC paper, inkjet and film form an important part of our portfolio now and going forward.

Finally, HARMAN technology Limited is based in Mobberley, CHESHIRE ( not Macclesfield although it is quite near ) this was the former ILFORD Imaging factory built in 1984 on the site of the RAJAR photo works that have been at Mobberley since 1903.

The 6 Original Board Directors of HARMAN technology were all Senior Managers at ILFORD Imaging Limited and had ( and have ) in excess of 140 years service to ILFORD / HARMAN.

Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited

 

[miha]

Dear Simon, thanks for the update. It's true that Kentmere never went belly up, but it's also true that 6 years after the "marriage of ideals" (your words) there is little left of Kentmere that is of interest to the analogue photographic world. I'm also not suggesting that they would survive on their own nor that it is your fault as we are facing some rough times as I already said in my previous post. I just put their name alongside some of the finest names in the industry that are no longer with us. I wish you well as our hobby (and profession) depend on your prosperity.

 

[AgX]

Yes, there is a difference between an independant company still existing and part of its product range being continued by a competitor.

 

[StoneNYC]

Kodachrome is not that an icon in parts of the world as it is in the USA.

That a news agency reports about Kodachrome being cancelled does not necessarily mean that many people in that country can begin something with that name. I'm sure asking people here on the street would show that the majority does not know Kodachrome.

Ahh again it's about pekoe understanding about what FILM is. Why not ask them "where can I buy some film for my camera" and I'm sure many will ask "I don't think they make film anymore" and my point was that the Kodachrome news was part of the global idea that film was going away. They never separated "Kodachrome" from "film"

Anyway it's just a thought, why not ask? Try and see what people say?

 

[AgX]

In most small places around (of about 10,000 people) there still is a photo-shop that still sells film (I even can get APS film), and there are two large drugstore chains with a lot of stores around.
Both got films, C-41, E-6, b&w. One chain even offered Ektar until recently.


The question people over here rather will ask is "Who is still using film?"

 

[StoneNYC]

In most small places around (of about 10,000 People) there still is a photo-shop that still sells film (I even can get APS film), and there are two large drugstore chains with a lot of stores around.
Both got films, C-41, E-6, b&w. One got even Ektar until recently.


The question people over here rather will ask is "Who is still using film?"

I don't deny that there are still shows, but unless you're a photographer you might not notice them... That's what I mean, other people don't know what we know.

Just try it, ask a few people in town where to buy film for your camera and see what they say...

 

[AgX]

As I indicated everyone going to one of these shops either will see films at eye-height behind the counter or will pass them and all
those single-use cameras on the shelves next to those digital kiosk devices.
Film is well presented.

The decreasing acceptance of film is the issue.
And even persons from the industry who should know the market are drawing a picture worse than the actual situation.

 

[erikg]

I agree with everything except the PanF+ in 4x5 part. Not only because that would be friggin awesome! But specifically because I don't think it's dangerous to encourage the current companies to developing new films, or to expand their lines, if they are capable and the market will support it. If they were able to produce PanF+ on a thicker base, make it properly and make it without re-doing the entire thing, they would, many people ask for it.

That question has been asked and answered many times. As much as I love Pan-F it's not going to happen. Better to ask of any of these companies "are you working on any new products?" Ilford considered a Delta 25 a few years back and decided that the market didn't exist, but there may be a market for other new offerings, as there was for Kentmere 100 and 400.

Like John Lennon's quote about Elvis, for me they killed Kodachrome when the 25 speed went away.

 

[PKM-25]

All I am trying to get people to do is to help stop the momentum that the digital-only companies are more than happy to see persist. And to be fair, I think the worst damage of asking for what we no longer have and won't is on these industry and product availability types of threads as there tends to be less reference to how great the existing films are.

AGX, I am not sure how much you get out on a daily basis and relate to people directly because of photography but for me, it is a ton and in one of the most photographed places in the world. So I ask people where they heard they can no longer buy film anymore and the reply 99% of the time? The Internet!

I would be an idiot to say that no one should ever ask a film making company if they could make a new film or a current one in a new format, especially in the case of Ilford. But I also believe that every time that appears on a google search cached web page, it is great marketing for the companies pushing digital products, so I totally avoid it.

I don't think, I know that black and white film is and will be fine for the rest of my career, but because of the ruthless nature of this momentum of public perception, I make a point of saying how much I love Pan-F in 120, Tmax in 4x5, etc. Some people tend to think that the niche of film is like any other product in how it should be marketed and that it is subject to the same forces as other products. Well no, it is not and not only is it a niche, it is one that can get in the way of selling digital products so the fight going on right in front of your nose is downright ruthless.

 

[Ken Nadvornick]

It's completely baffling to me how some can not see this...

So then, assuming for just a moment that such an international anti-film grand conspiracy is true, it's comforting to know that Alaris is already on it. They are on it, aren't they? By quickly rolling out highly visible new advertising and awareness campaigns to counter and blunt this digital conspiracy against film? And to begin shifting the marketplace back into their favor? I mean, if all of this is true wouldn't their very survival in the marketplace depend on it? And if this conspiracy is as sinister—and existential—as described, there would not be a moment to lose.

Right?

Perhaps the understanding you seek is already contained within your above assertion...

Ken

 

[PKM-25]

So then, assuming for just a moment that such an international anti-film grand conspiracy is true, it's comforting to know that Alaris is already on it. They are on it, aren't they?

You forgot to add Ilford and Fuji in there…why is that Ken? And it is not anti-film Ken, it is digital companies taking full advantage of a momentum of public perception, feeding it in any way they can, applauding those film users who replace the internet shared notion of how great Tmax 100 is with gosh I wish I had my Plus-X.

Yes, Kodak alaris is on it, those who work for them, Colleen Krenzer, Audrey Jonckheer, they are constantly showcasing new talent on the Kodak Pro Facebook page, and are with the guidance and support of Alaris members, currently evaluating how market trends like smart phones putting dents in DSLR sales, etc. affect their strategies. Great Kodak film shooters like John Sexton and ULF film vendors like KB Canham Cameras all link and like each other on Facebook to great effect, that is proper marketing Ken.
All film makers have to carefully consider how they spend their money to sell their products and rely heavily on word of mouth and people with high levels of talent showing proof that film is a worthwhile medium. Nikon has used Aston Kutcher to sell point and shoots because the sheer numbers of digi-sales and the momentum of digital makes it easy to take that chance.

Ilford will not be hiring Brad Pitt to appear on TV to gush about photos of Angelina Jolie shot on Delta100 nor will they pay for a $30,000 one page, one run ad in Vogue to do the same, that is out of context in a world that is convinced that the latest and greatest is the way to go.

Because what is different for Kodak, Fuji and Ilford in terms of marketing is that they are no longer mainstream, the go to medium for the casual snapper so they do not have the sheer thrust of the marketing hype that digital got lucky with right when the information and social media age started to really take off. So all these film makers have to be careful about how their higher visibility promotion comes off….it could look desperate and in the case of Kodak-alaris, it could *look* reckless and risky in terms of use of capitol since they are fresh out of bankruptcy proceedings.

No matter what any film maker has in store in terms of marketing, because they are a niche product, they rely more heavily on word of mouth than other more mainstream companies, this will never change because the fact that film is niche will never change.

Perhaps ask Kodak in person what they have planned to market film…and while you are at it, perhaps ask them if they need any help in showing how great their films are and if they need a great image from you in which to do that with? That is what I do. Fuji does not need ANY help from me in showing how great my X100S is, they have momentum and public perception.

But all makers of film need our help in keeping film a healthy niche, and that includes inspiring potential new users with a positive outlook and visually celebrate what awesome films we have in a digital age.

 

[ntenny]

Some people tend to think that the niche of film is like any other product in how it should be marketed and that it is subject to the same forces as other products. Well no, it is not and not only is it a niche, it is one that can get in the way of selling digital products so the fight going on right in front of your nose is downright ruthless.

It seems like that only makes sense if you think that film is a threat to digital. Surely that ship had decisively sailed by, oh, a decade ago? I think film is about as much of a concern to the digital photo market as paint is.

As another thread points out, the real battle in digital-land is between dedicated cameras and phones. The whole camera industry is in deep yogurt from a mass-market standpoint---the film segment might actually be more stable, having already gone through its period of de-mass-commercialization. I don't think Cosina-Voigtlaender is much affected by the move to smartphones as imaging platforms, you know?

-NT

 

[AgX]

AGX, I am not sure how much you get out on a daily basis and relate to people directly because of photography but for me, it is a ton and in one of the most photographed places in the world.

Talking to people in the most photographed places in the world does not tell you anything about what people at other places know about film or to what extend they use film.
You will only see a fraction of people. Including those from abroad, that will likely be not representative for their country.

As said where I live people see films on offer in their daily life. Most likely at their drugstore.


And the same internet that seemingly tells people that there would be no more films yields a lot of retailers of film.

 

[StoneNYC]

Talking to people in the most photographed place in the world does not tell you anything about what people in other places know about film or to what extend they use film.

It put you in touch with a larger group of people who are the type of people to take photographs, which does give you an idea of the kind of people out there who know about film in general, if you're going to an area where tons of people take pictures, and none of them know that film exists, that's a pretty good indicator that the normal person who doesn't go and take photographs often probably doesn't know about film either.

 

[Ken Nadvornick]

You forgot to add Ilford and Fuji in there…why is that Ken?

Well, the short answer is because this is a Kodak Alaris thread, not a Harman or Fujifilm thread. But I'm going to hold off a bit in responding further to this because I really do like Dan* and responses from others to him are coming in pretty quickly. I don't want to be accused of piling on here.



Ken

* Heck, I gave him one of my printing easels...

 

[MattKing]

Stone:

The market in Europe is really different then in North America. That is the essence of what AgX is saying.

In fact, North America is different from anywhere else.

In further fact, Canada and Mexico are really different from the USA.

Film could be a really healthy industry even if there wasn't a single roll sold in the USA.

 

[AgX]

..., if you're going to an area where tons of people take pictures, and none of them know that film exists, that's a pretty good indicator that the normal person who doesn't go and take photographs often probably doesn't know about film either.

If the normal person does not know about film, who is still ordering those hundreds of millions of prints originating from C-41 films in Europe??
These are common people. But meanwhile invisible with their film loaded cameras. But invisible does not mean inexistant.