A Christmas Cookie from Santa

[Photo Engineer]

Ray;

These are color figures and photos, many FROM the DVD in the book to illustrate or emphasize a point.

PE

 

[AgX]

With complicated graphics I prefer colour.

 

[wildbillbugman]

PE,
What the Heck?! I don`t think anyone will be buying multiple copies of your book. The difference between $25 and $100 for a one time purchase is not a big deal! Anyone who is making emulsions must realize that $75 dose not buy a lot of AgNO3. I say Go For The Color. A color photograph of a gray scale image is only inappropriate if it misrepresents the actual image. A color reproduction of a warm tone black and white photograph can me more honest than a neutral reproduction of that image.
I am serious,for a change
Bill

 

[hrst]

Good to hear about your progress! I'm waiting eagerly.

About color vs. bw ----

although I am ready to pay 100 USD for the book -- for the marvelous CONTENT! -- , I would be a bit reluctant to do it just for color printing. If the book explained color theory etc. it would be more important, but BW graphics and photos in a book describing mostly BW emulsions would be IMO sufficient. If it is $25 vs $100, If I was you I would make it BW and $35 and use the extra $10 for buying some silver nitrate .

Or to rephrase, I don't want that much money go to the print, but rather I'd support your research efforts with that money.

So, color is a nice extra, but not worth 4x price.

Most of the technical literature of this area is printed in black and white anyway and the photos and illustrations make perfect sense. Shanebrook's book is an exception as it is strongly a photo book.

But, I'll be happy in any decision you make.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Go for color. The photographs of the prints will show subtle differences with color.

Steve

 

[Photo Engineer]

Guys;

Lets do this again. The cost to ME is about $25 B&W and $100 Color in small quantities. The cost to you would be more than that just so that I can break even. I spent $50 today on paper just to print copies for editing. And, some people will not buy the DVDs or vice versa, so that there is material repeated in both the book and the DVDs.

The cost would go down if I ordered more. But then I am speculating that I can sell the larger quantity. So, in a hypothetical scenario, I can get up to 100 books for $100 each in color or go to a shop and get 1000 books for about $50 each. Either way that is a LOT of money to invest so I am looking at all aspects of this to cut costs for all of us.

PE

 

[Sirius Glass]

Ron,

What you need for starters is an accurate count of the APUGgers who will really buy the book, not the ones who say they will buy the book. That would help you estimate the size of the first printing. Maybe Ralph has ome words of wisdom on this.

Steve

 

[Jesper]

Preorders?
I'm in either B/W or color.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Ron,

What you need for starters is an accurate count of the APUGgers who will really buy the book, not the ones who say they will buy the book. That would help you estimate the size of the first printing. Maybe Ralph has ome words of wisdom on this.

Steve

Steve;

I am pretty sure that it would not work unless these people prepayed.

I am probably going to work with the same printer that did Bob's book.

Thanks.

PE

 

[wildbillbugman]

PE
Whether we are talking about $25 vs. $100 or $50 vs $150, my argument is the same.
Perhaps you could ask for deposits, just to discover how many cwazy emulsion makers are weally sewious.
Bill

 

[hrst]

I would be fine with preordering with prepayment if it happens when the book is checked and ready to be printed. I think we all understand that you need capital to be able to print it, so prepayment is fine...

You could, for example, have a discount price for people who have preordered and prepaid, or some other kind of motivation. I think that one of the best motivations is a clause that you can guarantee the availability only for those who have preordered -- and, the more preorders, the lower price. Then, we would do our best to advertise the book among the traditional photography enthusiasts -- not only this forum. This could actually start a new boom!

What comes to color vs. bw, I think many of us who are active on this forum are so eager about this book that the price difference wouldn't matter, but OTOH lower price would surely attract more people to buy the book, lowering the price even more, and "spreading the word" for those who are not sure enough about emulsion making but want to give it a try some day or get more information before getting too deeply involved. So, lower price would help to get rid of the "specialist" stigma of emulsion making, and spread the word among all BW film hobbyists, making emulsion experimenting comparable to home darkroom printing etc.

Anyway, it's so nice to see we are so close that we discuss the actual printing! Congratulations for the hard work!

 

[dwross]

It sounds like it's time for you to establish a simple webpage promoting the book and etc and accepting prepayments. You can make it clear that you'll be able to start printing the books as soon as you reach 'X' prepayments. A running tally of orders would be fun to watch. Count me in as #1 when it's set up.

I'm absolutely delighted for you. You've been at this project for a long time. I'm guessing it feels a little surreal to be getting this close. For what it's worth, you have a lot of fans and friends cheering from the bleachers. Our best to you.
d

 

[Photo Engineer]

Well, the book could be a download. I'm considering that. Then you could order it via APUG! Listening in Sean?

I could zip it and reduce the size from about 60M to something uploadable. The DVDs though would have to be sent via mail I would think due to the huge file sizes.

Version VI just finished printing out to go to my friends for editing!

PE

 

[wildbillbugman]

Ron,
In considering making the book a download,the quality of the printing that you are considering vs. home printing should be considered. Since you are pondering B&W vs. Color, I will assume that the quality of the illustrations is important. In that case, home printing on an a consumer grade ink jet printer might be not OK.
Bill

 

[Photo Engineer]

Bill;

I am only printing this for my own editing and for friends to edit and mark up.

As for the images, they are as high a quality as I can make them except for a few hand drawn graphs which I hope to improve before finalizing things. Viewed on-screen, the image quality is excellent and with a good printer, as Bob used, the book should be quite striking for quality.

I have opted for single column with nearly full width photos which currently run about 5" wide so that detail can be seen.

Thanks.

PE

 

[AgX]

What about "printing on demand"?

 

[Photo Engineer]

That is actually the method that I got a quote on and posted above.

PE

 

[Sirius Glass]

PE
Whether we are talking about $25 vs. $100 or $50 vs $150, my argument is the same.
Perhaps you could ask for deposits, just to discover how many cwazy emulsion makers are weally sewious.
Bill

How about contingent deposits of $50US [in $25US increments]:

A deposits $50US for the book not to exceed $100US
A deposits $50US for the book not to exceed $125US
B deposits $50US for the book not to exceed $75US
C deposits $50US for the book not to exceed $150US
D deposits $50US for the book not to exceed $100US
...

​

That way you would have

X0 $50US deposits not to exceed $75US
X1 $50US deposits not to exceed $100US
X2 $50US deposits not to exceed $125US
X3 $50US deposits not to exceed $150US
...
​

Then you would have commitments that would allow you to calculate the price point.

Steve

 

[Athiril]

Athiril;

My head has a hole in it. I was up until 1AM editing the book, printing and reviewing the DVDs. Maybe you can explain your last post. I'm kinda whacked this AM.

Sorry.

PE

You're not familiar with this song?

Guys;

Lets do this again. The cost to ME is about $25 B&W and $100 Color in small quantities. The cost to you would be more than that just so that I can break even. I spent $50 today on paper just to print copies for editing. And, some people will not buy the DVDs or vice versa, so that there is material repeated in both the book and the DVDs.

The cost would go down if I ordered more. But then I am speculating that I can sell the larger quantity. So, in a hypothetical scenario, I can get up to 100 books for $100 each in color or go to a shop and get 1000 books for about $50 each. Either way that is a LOT of money to invest so I am looking at all aspects of this to cut costs for all of us.

PE

Perhaps make the DVD compulsory/standard?

Seeing as your method as stated in another post is print-on-demand like with the numerous online publishing services do, or where ever you get it from, you should also offer the colour version as well, since it's all print-on-demand, right?

Unfortunately, I priced out having my editing copies today. In B&W only it will run about $25 each without binding and up to $100 each in color. When I have the larger run made, this same type of price differential will apply!

So, here is a question..... How important is color to you all? Is it worth up to 4x in price no matter what the price is?

PE

How big is your book that it would cost $100 for print-on-demand for colour??

I assume the $100 price is based around the 400-500 page mark? ~21x27cm, hard cover and colour?


I'd pay $180-$220 for such a book. I'm not sure how many others would feel the same.

 

[Photo Engineer]

It is $0.11 / page in B&W and $0.59 / page in Color. Any color on a page is considered a color page. There are 244 pages in the main body of the book + cover + copyright page + ending pages. This brings it to about 250 pages. This brings it to $27.50 for all B&W and $147.50 for all color. Not all figures are color. The estimate right now for the average of 215 figures and graphs with about 1/2 in color is $100. The page size is 8.5 x 11. It is $4.00 / copy for binding. That is the cost to me.

At present, I am obligated to about 10 free copies which is inevitable. The Library of Congress wants one to register it, just as an example.

And I am familiar with that old song about my bucket. I am trying to apply it to this situation. I have failed somehow.

Now, an intermediary offers POD at a reduced price but also at a huge profit for them, but not much for me. I am still looking at this. As for the DVDs, everyone so far has suggested that the DVDs be optional, up to this point.

PE

 

[wildbillbugman]

OK-That`s it for me. I will now finish washing my rubber-like emulsion, leave it to soak overnight, and say 'Good Night'.
Bill

 

[Athiril]

It is $0.11 / page in B&W and $0.59 / page in Color. Any color on a page is considered a color page. There are 244 pages in the main body of the book + cover + copyright page + ending pages. This brings it to about 250 pages. This brings it to $27.50 for all B&W and $147.50 for all color. Not all figures are color. The estimate right now for the average of 215 figures and graphs with about 1/2 in color is $100. The page size is 8.5 x 11. It is $4.00 / copy for binding. That is the cost to me.

At present, I am obligated to about 10 free copies which is inevitable. The Library of Congress wants one to register it, just as an example.

And I am familiar with that old song about my bucket. I am trying to apply it to this situation. I have failed somehow.

Now, an intermediary offers POD at a reduced price but also at a huge profit for them, but not much for me. I am still looking at this. As for the DVDs, everyone so far has suggested that the DVDs be optional, up to this point.

PE

Oh well, the proofreadnig +1 to edition number, then proofreading that edition again and so forth seems to be a repeating loop..

lulu puts a 250 page, hardcover for 8.25x10.25" at $21.25 per unit at a quantity of a single book, but $64 for colour.

The colour price is quite good, it allows plenty of room for pricing into profit, (you get 80% iirc).

 

[Photo Engineer]

I'm looking at LuLu! Thanks.

PE

 

[Athiril]

They can do your ISBN too for you if needed. But you dont have to get your B&W and Colour from the same place, single unit on demand printing is good for the couple of those who'd want the colour version, since it costs nothing to actually host/make it available.

 

[Ray Rogers]

I think we need to keep in mind that
the book is not a showcase of fine photography;
it wll in most likelyhood be, hummm, a cookbook,
for the advanced artist/photographer.

If the photography was well done, color would,
for the most part, be unnecessary.

I have a self published book about dry plates which includes a CD (orDVD) with all the color mages.

I don't know how much value being able to see the tone of the photographs would be....

I would prefer a preorder special where a series of emulsions were produced... actual samples being included in the book; they could be included as an appendix.

I know the idea of using real photographs has been discounted by PE before;
This is just a reminder.

4x the cost of a b/w book is really wasteful IMHO.

The DVD should suffice.

That said, I like color and understand it may actually be necessary for some pictures;
Shanebrooks book for example, would have been much worse had it been in B/W.

I am not really thrilled with the color/printing quality of that book however.
My favorite low volume book of this sort is black and white with a color cover.

Execllent information
low cost and no frills.

On the otherhand,
A downloadable book is nice too...
if the absence of being printed, bound and mailed is reflected in the price.

I have several of these and they are good.
In addition, they can be printed in whole or in part
according to the desire of the individual,
some may opt to be more (? no judgement here) ecofriendly.

My own opinion is that a simple, clear, high quality hard copy,
at low cost, with or without color, is ideal.

Those of us here who are active will buy the book at any crazy price...
the larger % of sales however, will come from the less passionate and for them,
price will be an issue... any thing over 100 USD is for the truely passionate.

Or bloody rich.