A Christmas Cookie from Santa

[Athiril]

Over 100USD is a normal price.

Consider any reasonably new good book on optics, software or game programming, or other technical subjects, even just photography as a subject itself in many cases are over $100 USD for publisher-backed books from Amazon even, and this is with competing products/books/information as well.

Given print on demand, people would be able to order a b&w or colour book to their preference without printed copies having to sit around before demand. It also allows constant availability. I'm not so sure a downloadable version would be a great idea, but that's another argument altogether.



At a print cost of $64 (colour), I think a sale price of ~$130 would be very reasonable taking things into consideration, and consider what you're actually getting for your money. Information that you wouldn't be able to derive yourself without dedicating 10+ years to the subject, along with tens of thousands of dollars to do so or more, but you get this in such a short time frame, for very little cost.


This isn't a run-of-the-mill $40-$50 book.

 

[Ray Rogers]

Are you one of the chosen ones who have seen the book?
It may be a bit early early to pass judgement.

Sure, for a complete newbie who wants to get involved, it MIGHT be worth it.
but after all is said and done, the information, as I understand it, is the authors, not Kodak's,
for the most part, worked out at home over the last few years.
It needs to be valued accordingly.

You might be overrating things a tiny bit.
Basic information is easy to find if you simply want to get your fingers wet.

I don't know who buys such expensive books routienly,
but I must say thanks to the person who had the sense to envision a world with Public and University Librarys.

That is the only way for some to know books such as Haist.

I personally don't see the numbers adding up with a high sell price;
books on optics, programming, or other technical subjects have a wider audience, plus those are often cutting edge technology...
this presumably, is not.

I think 40-50 USD is not that far off.

 

[AgX]

Ray, the information the industry could give us would meanwhile be based on the laboratory standard employed and neccessary in the plants.
To my understanding PE is offering something digested and proven to be doable in high-end home labs.

 

[Jerevan]

I am hoping the book will be aimed towards the emulsion maker at home, who wants to have a textbook to achieve the practical results. Athirils' idea of two versions, B/W or colour with print on demand seems like a good idea. As for the question: I prefer colour.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Over 100USD is a normal price.

Technical textbooks are considered cheap if they are under $100US.

Steve

 

[Ray Rogers]

Well, yes AgX. That is sort of my point.
It is a tricky question, and absolute value is not the only consideration.
Different sell prices will result in different sales.

Different goals can be achieved by appropriate pricing.

I don't want to sound negative or whatever.

I am sure PE will set the price he thinks is best.

 

[wildbillbugman]

Ron and All,
I think that Ron should make the best book he can, to HIS satisfaction. Then charge what he thinks is a fair price for him to make a profit on each book sold. The IMPORTANT thing is that the book is the best that he can do to his own satisfaction, not what other people want. Ron is obviously not doing this just for commerce. I cannot know what is in Ron's mind, but I think that it is a labor of love. If I were to publish a book, I would not be satisfied with compromise. I would look at it as I look at my own art. I would not show it to anyone (accept for constructive criticism), until I was satisfied that it: one-meets my original intentions, and two-is the very best that I can do.
Bill

 

[Jerevan]

Amen to that, Bill! Make the best you can and put it out there.

 

[Athiril]

Are you one of the chosen ones who have seen the book?
It may be a bit early early to pass judgement.

Sure, for a complete newbie who wants to get involved, it MIGHT be worth it.
but after all is said and done, the information, as I understand it, is the authors, not Kodak's,
for the most part, worked out at home over the last few years.
It needs to be valued accordingly.

You might be overrating things a tiny bit.
Basic information is easy to find if you simply want to get your fingers wet.

I don't know who buys such expensive books routienly,
but I must say thanks to the person who had the sense to envision a world with Public and University Librarys.

That is the only way for some to know books such as Haist.

I personally don't see the numbers adding up with a high sell price;
books on optics, programming, or other technical subjects have a wider audience, plus those are often cutting edge technology...
this presumably, is not.

I think 40-50 USD is not that far off.

Those books are not dealing with cutting edge technology actually. Yes they have a wider audience and are thus cheaper than those with a narrower audience, that is how it goes.

While Ron's book IS cutting edge technology for the intended audience, yes there are a few years of work into this, with decades of background experience and specialisation. As I said earlier, it would take someone else much longer to come to this, and a lot of money, not a mere 2 or 3 years fiddling at home.

Even if that were the case, 3+ years work of an average person made into a book on a technical subject is worth more than $40-$50 already, let alone the above considerations.

$40-50 is a pretty low end book.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Ray;

Your post #52 was totally off the mark. Most of the others hit it right on.

This book was done as a labor of love. I have tried, but failed to duplicate modern emulsions at home, so what I did was to take my 15 years as a comparative emulsion scientist involved in emulsion modeling and scaling and use it to engineer several useful types of emulsion that can be done at home with less than about $5000 investment in equipment and chemicals. Options are shown for costs far less than this, probably in the $1000 level. I list the equipment for all options in the book and show (color) photos of all of it in use! The DVD goes into detail.

So, these emulsions, to the average APUG reader would be "cutting edge" as said above. The reasons being 1. Every emulsion has been made and tested more than once except for the warm tone Azo type emulsion; 2, All emulsions have been scaled from 100 ml up to as much as 5L, and also blended to prove repeatability; 3. All emulsions show variants that allow contrast control, speed control, spectral sensitivity control or combinations of the these (this feature alone making it totally unique among all emulsion making texts ever published AFAIK); 4. All of my emulsions given in the book are originals for one reason or another, and have not been published in this form elsewhere; and finally; All emulsions in the book are doable in the home lab with no special equipment except a hotplate-stirrer.

Last, but not least, I give reasoning behind everything done, and jumping off points for the brave, leaving a "cliff hanger" for myself as well in case sales go well. In doing so, I describe some of the Kodak technology that makes some of this doable and some that makes it very very difficult to do at home. That said, I can then move on from there and show either more advanced making or other techniques if there is a sequel or if I add to this book in the next few months before publication.

Now, to jump back a bit here. My efforts to make modern emulsions in my lab relate to the need for better high speed mixing (see my thread on stirring, mixing and homogenizing here on APUG). The need for precise delivery points in the kettle, and the need for precise baffles in the kettle to control eddies and other mixing problems are also involved. So, thus far, T-grains and cubes are within reach but need more advanced equipment and I am working on that.

At the present time, I am working on better mixing, but this ups the ante by as much as $2000. Who wants to spring for that?

And, there is the question of whether I should hold the book to include any success story or wait for a possible sequel. < Anyone listening to this particular question?? You see, this can be open ended. I can keep going for another year and completely cover the range of emulsions (If I succeed in making a modern emulsion), I can write a sequel, or I can offer updated appendices to prior purchasers.

Well, you get the picture. I am applying 15 years of emulsion experience and 32 years of overall product development work to this task. The emulsions are not just OTOMH. They are based on sound scientific methods of emulsion making!

PE

 

[Photo Engineer]

As an afterthought, I might mention that only about 6 people have seen the book, and only one to really do more than skim through so far. All have actually been APUG members, but not by design. Two of them have responded here, and the rest have responded in person. The response to me has been very good. Four people have seen the DVDs. I had direct response there as well.

About 30 people have gone through my 6 workshops and have made the formulas themselves. I pretty much keep in touch with them as needed.

About six people have been sent sample coatings or sample emulsions, and I have only heard from 2 on the emulsion or coating samples. This is not a very good response.

No one who has posted in this thread has seen the book or DVDs, nor have they had samples of the emulsion or coatings sent to them.

I hope this answers questions you all may have and which was posed by Ray above.

PE

 

[Athiril]

Someone who takes their photography seriously or is passionate about it just might is my guess - providing their passion for photography encompasses the analogue side of the coin (given the cost of photography) - I've seen enthusiasts put down $4k no a camera body, then $2k on a lens, then accessories on the digital side of things...

A second volume would be good, you could reference the first.

 

[Ray Rogers]

Economic Jingle Bells



All good information.

This thread asked about pricing; I gave my opinion.
despite it's bitter taste, I think there is truth in it.

That is really all I can say.

As you know, some people will pay a $100 for a melon,
or several hundred for a bottle of wine.

A lot of people just can't do that.

 

[wildbillbugman]

It just seams logical to me that,knowing the price of AgNO3, a person who frets over whether a highly desirable text is worth $150 vs $50 should maybe be doing Cyanotypes from digital paper negatives. Or maybe crossword puzzles.
Good night everybody,
Bill

 

[Ray Rogers]

I agree totally - Let them eat cake!

x-ray

On short notice:
1 Down: Opposite of tame
2 Across: Unwanted paper
3 Across: To get on someone's nerves (slang)
4 Down: A masculine explicitive

 

[Ray Rogers]

Maybe it is unwise to take financial advice from the financially challenged
Good night ya'll

 

[Photo Engineer]

Maybe it is unwise for a retiree on a pension to try to do this. Especially alone!

PE

 

[Ray Rogers]

Maybe it is unwise for a retiree on a pension to try to do this. Especially alone!
PE

Lucky you have a pension!
But, you're not alone.

 

[Mustafa Umut Sarac]

I think there are two worldwide accepted ways to manufacture something.

First , American way , let a boss decide the colors of cars and produce them and blow in your hand.

Second , japanese way , production on demand

Third , after Japan blowed off , sell everything at a digital form with a digital payment.

Ron , If APUG ers are your only customers , sell the book via APUG as a download file.
It will cheap for you and for us.

To write a book is the result of investing your life in it. Every book comes in same way. So your book is not different from others . I will never be able to invest photography more than 200 dollars and American Economy is falling , so expensive books will not sell.

Lower the price make reachable to audience and the market.

Earn from the demand , not from the price. China sells a motorcycle for African Roads for 350 dollars , an Yamaha copy Tenor Sax for 125 dollars and You are thinking to sell your book for 100 dollars.

Many alternative people , BW people will buy it to search for a new idea. If the book comes expensive , they turn to alternative sources. I can now download millions of books from internet free.

Umut

 

[wildbillbugman]

Umut,
What, in God's gray Earth, is "blow in your hand"? Or is this something that I would rather not know?:whistling?

 

[Athiril]

Umut,
What, in God's gray Earth, is "blow in your hand"? Or is this something that I would rather not know?:whistling?

It's a new way of putting it...

 

[Photo Engineer]

Well, I now have the master copy of the book and the DVDs to go out for duplication and editing!

I hope to give out 4 - 5 copies next week or the week after to friends.

PE

 

[totalamateur]

PE;

Glad to hear it's looking ready - I look forward to seeing a final price and delivery options. Might ask for a copy (or disk) for my stocking this year.


Regards.

 

[Tim Gray]

Considering the amount of knowledge you have, the time you've put in, and the expense to you, around $100 seems like a fair price. I say go for color unless the color doesn't add much. I don't know how the graphics have been designed so I don't know how well they hold up in B&W or in gray.

A PDF version would be great too, if you could figure a way to not have to worry about it being passed around for free. PDF's are easily searchable.

 

[hvandam2]

PE, I look forward to this a great deal!

I received my copy of the great book on Kodak Film production by Robert Shanebrook and that just whet my appetite for more.

I appreciate your sharing this knowledge with us!


Howard