645 format vs. 35mm???

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keithwms

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I don't really see the point of trying to the thread into X format vs Y format, but if you really want a few examples...

I would like to see a MF photo of a sports event, wildlife, streetphoto, photojournalism.

Some casual mamiya 645AF sports shots of mine...

http://keithwilliamsphoto.net/lacrosse/

...a crop of frame #2, just a low-res flatbed scan...

http://keithwilliamsphoto.net/lacrossecrop/

What is the best fps a MF camera does (film, not digital)? 2, 3 fps?

A frame or two per second. Not a selling point either way though, in my view. If you tell me I have to work at one frame per 5 mins I will simply wait for the right moment :wink:

Plenty of decisive moments were recorded long before high fps / fast AF bodies were available. I used to have a camera with lawnmower for an AF motor (Nikon F5) but... not my thing. 'Downgraded' to an F100 then wondered why I need AF at all, so I went back to an fm2n. Love it.

And how much do we have to pay for a good MF scanner (dedicated, not a flatbed), if they still producing them?

For slide stuff, I get good scans off an old flatbed that cost a few hundred bucks; a small number of important slide shots get drummed, but only if I truly believe that somebody will want to buy a print and thus absorb that extra cost for me.

... for my needs, I realy prefer a much more "elastic" and cheaper system like the 35mm can offer.

Good for you! To each his/her own!
 
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film_man

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The choise of format doesn't depends just of size or resolution. There are many other factor to take into consideration.

Correct!

I'm saying this, because I also had the same question myself, and I ended up by staying in the 35mm format. First, because of money - dont have money to spend in new cameras, lenses, and a MF scanner. Second, I also use a digital SLR, and this way, I can easily use all my lenses in my Nikon's digital and film cameras, wich is much more pratical. Besides, I can choose among of many other types of lenses, while MF the choice is much more reduced (no VR/IS, no tils and shift, no long zooms or teles, etc.). And then, there is also the subject issue.

It is true, 35mm is far more convenient than any other format.

I think most of the posters here shoot nature or portraits? Or still-live subjects? I would like to see a MF photo of a sports event, wildlife, streetphoto, photojournalism. What is the best fps a MF camera does (film, not digital)? 2, 3 fps?

Yes, you are not going to get much more than 2fps at best (doesn't matter film or digital, they are all equally slow and the AF speed is not much better either). On the other hand, street photography? Come on, medium format has been used for ever for street photography unless your idea of street photography is picking off strangers with a 200mm lens at 5fps.

As for wildlife it depends what kind of wildlife. Yes, if you need to shoot birds far away or lions half-way throught lunch, a Canon 1V with a 600/4 is probably a better idea. A 1Ds with a 600/4 is an even better one. But wildlife is not impossible to do wit MF. Salgado shot the Galapagos with a Pentax 67 and TriX (if I remember correctly) and Nick Brandt creates his very distinct wildlife images with a Pentax67 as well.

And how much do we have to pay for a good MF scanner (dedicated, not a flatbed), if they still producing them?

Why a dedicated one? I use a V700. If I want better quality I send it to a lab and pay the premium for the one or two frames I need vs spending lots of money on a dedicated MF scanner and then spending hours trying to get scanning right with it. You don't have to scan everything yourself, it is more economical and time saving to sometimes outsource things.

I truly respect the obvious qualityes of MF, but sometimes the optimal is ennemy of the Good (sorry, dont know if this proverb exists in English). And for my needs, I realy prefer a much more "elastic" and cheaper system like the 35mm can offer.

I use both 35mm and MF. I use 6x6 and also tried 645. The only reason I decided 645 is not for me was that it was more close to square than rectangular. And if I am not to use square, I like to have something that is obviously rectangular, like 35mm. And the issue I now have is that if I want to do a more rectangular 120 format, then I have to move up from 645 and 6x6 to the other formats. Where the weight and size issue is indeed an issue.

But apart from that, 645 has the same tonality and resolution and look that pretty much any other 120 format has, which is far nicer and softer-yet-sharper-and-contrastier than 35mm. If I could have a 645-sized camera with a more rectangular format I'd pick it straight away, vs using a 35mm.

But each system has its use.

One last thing: cost. Is 35mm really cheaper? Yes it can be if you buy an Olympus OM1 but then the overal capabilities (AF/fps) are not much better than a 645 camera. But what if you want a more modern 35mm camera with all the bells and whistles? Probably a EOS 3 or F100? Either of which is £100-150 in the UK. How much for a 28/50/85 kit? In the UK used market, a 28/50/85 kit will cost you a minimum £450-500, so you are looking at £600 total for the camera and lenses. If you opt for a f/2.8 zoom, then you could bring this down to £400 (say a Tamron 28-75 and a EOS 3). I know the prices, I bought such equipment in the last year.

If you do not want the fps you can get the cheapest of the cheap 35mm bodies (an EOS 300V or F55?) for £10. So your 35mm kit costs are £400-600 for a basic kit.

Compare that to a 50/80/150 645 kit. Such a Bronica ETRS kit with prism and winder will cost you £300-350. A similar Mamiya 645 can be had for maybe £100 more than that.

Well, they are obviously not the same capability, fps vs hand crank, small film vs big film look etc. But you know the differences, the point is that it is not actually more expensive and the initial equipment cost can be less than 35mm. And God forbid if you want a Canon 1V or Nikon F5. That's almost Hasselblad money.

Anyway, I'm rambling on. Is 645 pointless? No. It has a very valid use and I would use it instead of 35mm if I liked the format ratio. But I don't. So I continue with 35mm and 6x6. Either format has a use. 35mm for convenience and certain types of photography. 120 film for other types or a different look.

Not sure why people (not you) go on about things in a "I have no use for this therefore it is useless and crap" way...
 

Steve Smith

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I would like to see a MF photo of a sports event, wildlife, streetphoto, photojournalism.

Roger Hicks has posted here (and in other places I think) that some of the best sports photography he has seen was as series of images of a boxing match shot on 5"x4"film with a Speed Graphic so it can certainly be done well with medium format.

Photo journalism was also carried out with Speed Graphics for many years before medium format took over.

Steve.
 
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perkeleellinen

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I'm not so sure that frames-per-second is much of an issue in sports photography. I used to photograph lots of skateboarding and I found timing was more important than quantity. Even at 6fps you can miss the perfect moment with fast sports, but a responsive shutter finger soon learns when to shoot. I found holding the shutter button down half way would eliminate a lot of the lag associated with the time needed between pushing the button and the shutter firing. I'm sure the same principle applies in street photography and wildlife. A friend shoots skateboarding with a Hasselblad and makes very nice pictures:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/alexburrell/tags/hasselblad/
 

benjiboy

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I would advise Barry( Stradibarrius) that unless he needs the money to keep what he has because it's not eating anything, and each format has it's individual merits and strengths.
 

BetterSense

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Hasselblad 500C/M is practically the standard camera for shooting skateboarding and BMX, at least among those who can afford them.
 
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stradibarrius

stradibarrius

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Thanks Iorick. Your points are valid and I think most people here would agree that each format has its strengths and weaknesses. For me trying to shoot a High School football game with my manual focus camera that has no meter very difficult.
 

benjiboy

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Thanks Iorick. Your points are valid and I think most people here would agree that each format has its strengths and weaknesses. For me trying to shoot a High School football game with my manual focus camera that has no meter very difficult.

It's not impossible Barry it just takes practice and anticipation look at some of the amazing sports pictures shot in the 1950s and 60s.
 

PaulMD

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Besides, I can choose among of many other types of lenses, while MF the choice is much more reduced (no VR/IS, no tils and shift, no long zooms or teles, etc.).

I do miss IS, if you really really want it you could get a gyro stabilizer, but many of these options are available depending on the system. The Pentax 67 system has a shift (not tilt) lens, a fisheye, a 55-100mm zoom, a 90-180mm zoom, and a pretty good selection of tele lenses (if you can afford them).

Anyway, someone said it earlier, horses for courses.

35mm has super-long lenses that just don't exist in MF/LF (anything beyond 500mm equivalent, and anything beyond 100mm equivalent is spendy).

I've never shot 6x4.5, but it seems to be the 35mm of medium format - some pretty fast (f/1.8) lenses are available, you can get autofocus lenses, motor winders, changeable backs, and so on.

6x6 has its unique aspect ratio and the ability to choose a vertical/horizontal crop after the fact. If you've got the cashflow, there's even autofocus available on the high-end gear.

6x7 has extra image area, fits 8x10 nicely without a big crop, and can still be shot handheld with 400 speed film.

Large format has movements, which obviates the need for perspective control lenses, and even more negative area. I don't buy that the resolution's not as great - look at Perez/Thalmann's lens tests, they're easily getting 40lp/mm from run of the mill old lenses, 60+ from new ones or classic oldies, and if you find the "sweet spot" it looks like you can get 60 from most lenses.

It always cracks me up to hear that you can't use this or that handheld or that you can't shoot action with a ____, the Kalart Rangefinder was invented before most of us were probably born (20s sometime I think?) and 4x5s were the photographic standard for decades. Is it as easy as a digital with an autofocus lens that can shoot 6fps? No. Will a tripod always help? Yep. Are there tricks and pieces of equipment to make it a bit easier on you? Sure. In the end though, what really limits you is your skill and your artistic vision, so get out, shoot, and stop measurebating.
 
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Tom Stanworth

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645 is not too far from 6x7 (there is a noticeable difference on larger prints, some films etc) but a long way ahead of 35mm. To say that 35mm and 645 are not that different is plain wrong. Even for small prints.
 

PaulMD

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I wasn't implying otherwise, I was merely ascribing some of the positive characteristics of 35mm (light weight, faster lenses, autofocus, motor drive, more shots per roll) to 645.
 

CGW

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I wasn't implying otherwise, I was merely ascribing some of the positive characteristics of 35mm (light weight, faster lenses, autofocus, motor drive, more shots per roll) to 645.

Anyone with those criteria isn't shooting film any longer. For MF, those aren't critical.
 

markbarendt

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Anyone with those criteria isn't shooting film any longer. For MF, those aren't critical.

Really? :confused:
 

CGW

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Really? :confused:

It's 2011, right? I shoot 6x4.5, 6x6, 6x7 for image quality. I still shoot 35mm for portability but if I want speed, fast AF, flash control, and fast turn-around...Well, it isn't 35mm.
 

2F/2F

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It's 2011, right? I shoot 6x4.5, 6x6, 6x7 for image quality. I still shoot 35mm for portability but if I want speed, fast AF, flash control, and fast turn-around...Well, it isn't 35mm.

The only one of those criteria that are exclusively digital is "fast turn-around." Even then, I would say that you would have to modify that to read "very fast turnaround," unless you are nowhere near a quality lab.
 

CGW

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The only one of those criteria that are exclusively digital is "fast turn-around." Even then, I would say that you would have to modify that to read "very fast turnaround," unless you are nowhere near a quality lab.

Again, its 2011. Fast, cheap(even not so cheap)35mm processing has thinned to the point of invisibility in my area, as it surely has elsewhere. I'll happily shell out for MF processing and printing but not 35mm in the volume I shot as recently as a year ago. This can't be news around here.
 

2F/2F

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That is your situation, which is well covered by my exception, and which you seem intent on projecting onto all of us as a general statement of fact. Instead of blankly stating that that is just the way it is because that is the way it is for you, why not just say that that is the way it is for you? I can get get dip-n-dunked, proofed, and even scanned film of any type back in four hours here, but I don't go around trying to tell everyone that film results are only a four hour turnaround because that is my situation.

Additionally, I will reassert that the only one of your criteria that causes you to choose digital is the turnaround time in your neck of the woods. All the other stuff ("speed, fast AF, flash control") is more than available with many film cameras.

I am not disagreeing with your choice to shoot digital for quick turnaround in your situation – just your opinion that this argument holds for everyone to the point that we might as well shoot digital if we want to shoot 35mm.
 
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markbarendt

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It's 2011, right? I shoot 6x4.5, 6x6, 6x7 for image quality. I still shoot 35mm for portability but if I want speed, fast AF, flash control, and fast turn-around...Well, it isn't 35mm.

Shoot however you want, but your opinion/preferences/situation/choices don't define reality for the rest of us and this is the wrong place to be bashing film.
 

hpulley

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I can have prints in seconds with the NPC Land Polaroid back on my Mamiya RB67 ProS. I can develop a roll in minutes in the basement and can make prints from the negatives in short order. Honestly digital isn't much faster at all if you develop and print your own, the time to 'develop' and print in Photoshop and inkjet isn't much quicker. Digital is only faster for straight out of the camera output you pass on to other people. Sadly it is still what most people want when I offer both these days even when what they're asking for would be better with film, even offering to develop it and scan it tonight is often not enough and it is hard to argue with what the client wants.

Getting back to sports, many people seem to forget that there were sports and photographers taking pictures of the players before the '70s when the spray and pray film bodies and 250 shot film backs started to appear. Before that you didn't need to take so many pictures. Really you just needed one or two good shots which is all that would accompany an article in the newspaper. The rest were throwaways. Nowadays you can take a few thousand throwaway digital shots but instead if you know the sport, know your equipment and have skill you can time the best moments and get them with any camera, any format. You know which players to watch, when the action is important rather than taking a zillion shots the whole game, practically taking video.

Anticipating focus can work much better than autofocus. You pre focus where you know the action will be and take the shot there. You don't need AI Servo to do this. This can work better and faster than autofocus which can decide to focus on the background or do a full sweep of focus if your AF point is not in the right place and it can't find any contrast.

Auto exposure? Does the light change that much? Not really unless half the field of play is in shadow, or if players are constantly facing into the sun and with the sun to their back. Generally you can meter once and go from there unless there are clouds passing in front of the sun on and off. AE can be confused more than the photographer much of the time, your camera goes by the stadium lights and suddenly you're underexposed like crazy. One team is wearing white and the other is wearing black, should the exposure really be different for each team? No but this will fool your meter.
 

heespharm

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Wow this conversation is getting ridiculous.... Just agree different strokes for different folks....

I Personallyshoot 35 when I'm lazy and want to use my canon lenses with autofocus.... Ironically my best 35mm images were taken with a canonet rangefinder.... I use 6x4.5 6x6 and 6x7 when I'm considering large enlargement or want that "hasselblad" look to the images and 4x5 when I'm looking for super sharp super detailed stuff and contact prints... They are all tools.... Use them accordingly


In my personal view there isn't much difference between 35mm and 6x4.5... It's a 1cm or 10mm height difference which is about a 20% difference where I feel I can use slower films and proper processing to make up that difference

35mm Vs 6x7 is almost 1.8 or double the size... Now that's a difference... No amount of processing in my ability or film speed could make up for that large of a difference

Just my 2 cents

Edit: I also like to carry my hassy whenever I can so sometimes I carry a 6x4.5 back so I can shoot a rectangular format instead of square but switch back to square just by changing backs... That's pretty much the only time I carry 6x4.5
 

Bob-D659

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a 24x36mm frame is a little more than 10mm shorter than a 42x56mm frame, sprocket holes don't count. :smile:
 

markbarendt

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Getting back to sports, many people seem to forget that there were sports and photographers taking pictures of the players before the '70s when the spray and pray film bodies and 250 shot film backs started to appear.

I remember using manual advance and manual focus to shoot at the drags and coming home with plenty of good stuff.
 

CGW

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That is your situation, which is well covered by my exception, and which you seem intent on projecting onto all of us as a general statement of fact. Instead of blankly stating that that is just the way it is because that is the way it is for you, why not just say that that is the way it is for you? I can get get dip-n-dunked, proofed, and even scanned film of any type back in four hours here, but I don't go around trying to tell everyone that film results are only a four hour turnaround because that is my situation.

Additionally, I will reassert that the only one of your criteria that causes you to choose digital is the turnaround time in your neck of the woods. All the other stuff ("speed, fast AF, flash control") is more than available with many film cameras.

I am not disagreeing with your choice to shoot digital for quick turnaround in your situation – just your opinion that this argument holds for everyone to the point that we might as well shoot digital if we want to shoot 35mm.

Chill. Your reality may differ; I'm simply reporting mine, OK? What's up with the Grand Inquisitor tone, anyway? I refuse to pay for crap 35mm C-41 processing and printing. I'm all but done with it. MF is where my time, money and energy goes now. Think you're wide of the mark taking this as a digital-vs-analog pissing contest.
 
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