4X5 Field Camera, Simplified for Laser cutting, All dimensions are needed

[Mustafa Umut Sarac]

I am drawing a 4X5 Field Camera on paper for give to the autocad guy to cut my parts from aluminum with laser cnc machine. I need a web drawing which includes of all dimensions. I surfed the net and overdosed. Can anyone send me a link ? Camera will not use any wooden parts or complicated accessories , only the cuts and holes and nuts will finish it.

If it works , I will put all dxf files to articles with each parts pictures. No guess work needed anymore

Thanks,

Umut

 

[BetterSense]

This is a great idea. I contemplated the same thing when I made my 6x7 view camera. I was going to use black ABS plastic which can be solvent welded and get it cut with a waterjet. I ended up using birch ply in the end though.

 

[ic-racer]

This one is wood, but it has all the dimensions you require: Dead Link Removed

 

[Mustafa Umut Sarac]

Thank you ic racer .

 

[polyglot]

Don't draw it on paper. Use a free CAD program, like sketchup, or there are many others available. There are online places that will laser-cut woods and 3D print plastics for you for pretty cheap.

 

[Steve Smith]

Don't draw it on paper. Use a free CAD program, like sketchup, or there are many others available.

Download ProgeCAD. It is an AutoCAD clone which is free for private use and can create DXF or DWG files.

I need a web drawing which includes of all dimensions. I surfed the net and overdosed. Can anyone send me a link ?

I can send you DXF files of my camera if you give me your e-mail address in a private message - although it is a complex folding field camera design which might not be what you are looking for.


Steve.

 

[Mustafa Umut Sarac]

Hello Steve,

I am cad idiot until If I register to a course. I am thinking for that winter. PM is on the way.

Why not share it with others at article , have think this.

Thank you very much.

 

[polyglot]

I have long wished I could have my own view camera design precision machined/printed/etc. Ideally from aluminum or stainless. I suspect precision would be the problem. I have a Walker SF (ABS/stainless).

Precision is not particularly expensive anymore. Have a look at services like Ponoko, they will laser-cut any old shape for you out of a range of materials. You just need to draw it up. They will even 3D print in metal (sintered).

 

[Steve Smith]

And not everything needs precision.

It is needed where parts slide together such as focusing racks and it is necessary to have the ground glass in the same position as the film emulsion when a film holder is put in place but just about everything else on a view camera is infinitely variable so not so much precision is needed there!


Steve.

 

[Dan Fromm]

Folks, the OP said the work would be done on "a laser CNC machine."

Will someone please enlighten me about these machines' capabilities? The little voice in the back of my mind keeps whispering that they're used for cutting sheet metal, not for removing material to make 3D forms.

If the little voice is right -- it isn't always -- I have trouble seeing how the OP can start with pieces cut by "a laser CNC machine" and end up with a view camera. I have Graphics with stamped sheet metal standards, can't see how to make those pieces or, for that matter, a flat bed with tracks for the standards to run on, and so on out of unbent sheet metal.

I'm also a little puzzled by the original post. Two reasons. The OP recently told the world he was done with photography and would take up painting. His return to dreaming about cameras confirms my belief that painting an acceptable picture is harder than operating a camera. And after the OP recently had many adventures obtaining an 8 mm Bolex so that he could shoot thousands of stills at a reasonable price and he told us that having a single roll of 8 mm film processed was more than he could afford. Shooting 4x5 costs more. I hope he's won the lottery.

 

[eclarke]

Jeez, see Arca Swiss..

 

[Dan Fromm]

Jeez, see Arca Swiss..

http://www.arca-swiss-magasin.com/

Making one out of flat pieces of metal doesn't seem practical. What have I missed?

 

[wombat2go]

It is a 3D thing the way I do it, but my way is old and primitive I suppose.
This is a rear frame for an RH10 being made

 

[polyglot]

Folks, the OP said the work would be done on "a laser CNC machine."

Will someone please enlighten me about these machines' capabilities? The little voice in the back of my mind keeps whispering that they're used for cutting sheet metal, not for removing material to make 3D forms.

If the little voice is right -- it isn't always -- I have trouble seeing how the OP can start with pieces cut by "a laser CNC machine" and end up with a view camera. I have Graphics with stamped sheet metal standards, can't see how to make those pieces or, for that matter, a flat bed with tracks for the standards to run on, and so on out of unbent sheet metal.

Yes, they cut (intricate) forms from flat material, including things like accurate finger joints. You then piece the material together into whatever structure you need, using screws, glues, whatever.

This might give some inspiration, as might a bunch of pictures.

If you want complex 3D structures without assembly, you can 3D print them. (there was a url link here which no longer exists), and here's (there was a url link here which no longer exists). Using selective laser sintering (SLS) with metal, you can do things like print wing spars for aircraft, turbines and even a whole regenerative rocket engine. That's a little expensive, but has more than enough precision for any camera parts you might need.

 

[Dan Fromm]

Yes, they cut (intricate) forms from flat material, including things like accurate finger joints. You then piece the material together into whatever structure you need, using screws, glues, whatever.

Thanks for the explanation and links. I now have a clearer idea of what the OP had in mind, still have problems with reducing the idea to practice.

I have the impression that laser cutters can be thought of (very loosely) as improved band saws. Is this correct?

Years ago I bought some Canon cine camera service manuals. One was for an AZ814. This beastie had a die cast "backbone" (really more-or-less a plate) to which sub-assemblies were bolted. The sub-assemblies were made up of small castings and bits of stamped sheet metal and ... all bolted together. More recently I dismantled some AGI F135 aerial cameras. Same concept, numerous small pieces bolted together and to a gorgeous die cast box with central plate. After the AZ814 Canon replaced the built-up sub-assemblies with die castings.

On the whole, using a milling machine as wombat-to-go does seems a better approach to making a view camera than using flat pieces and many fasteners. And as far as I know all of the metal view cameras made so far contain castings and milled pieces with relatively few fasteners.

 

[wombat2go]

Looking around, it seems that a hobby laser cutter that can only do wood and plastic, including accessories is around $3000+.
Laser cutting service looks like about $30+ per camera sized piece in non metal.

I am learning that it is often easier to do cylindical/disc shapes on the lathe, than rectangular with an end mill. (That essentially reduces the shape to 2D from 3D)
Also a lot of the work is cylindical anyway, associated withe adaptors for shutter and lenses.


So here is my thought for the day from this thread: (And don't hold me to it !)
What about a DIY metal field -type camera that is basically cylindrical - just with a rectangular orifice for the back ?)

Here are photos of another - fabrication method used on the camera I am working on now.

Ordinary hot rolled carbon steel angle- very cheap.
Accurately mitred to 45 degrees using the lathe and its milling attachment
Silver brazed with oxy acetylene into the rectangle, using a simple jig.
Faced flat to a tolerance of about +/- 0.001 inch (25 micrometre) in the lathe
The consistency of my hand brazing is shown and it was fairly good.
Linished with a coarse belt sander, the appearance of the perimeter is reasonably neat, and resembles the linished Polaroid backs.

At the moment I am stopped, waiting for threading taps.
I broke a M2 by 0.4 tap in a lens board, luckily i got it out without damaging my hard earned piece.
I also have an M7 by left hand tap and die coming , for an idea to use jackscrews.

 

[Steve Smith]

Bear in mind that people used to (and still do) make view cameras with just hand tools.

Some of you Americans who watch New Yankee Workshop might not believe that tools exist which are not run by electricity or air!!!


Steve.

 

[polyglot]

Thanks for the explanation and links. I now have a clearer idea of what the OP had in mind, still have problems with reducing the idea to practice.

I have the impression that laser cutters can be thought of (very loosely) as improved band saws. Is this correct?

Yep. But the ability to create accurate fine detail takes you a qualitative step beyond what can be made with a bandsaw. Interlocks, high integrity joints, moving parts, etc, etc.

Years ago I bought some Canon cine camera service manuals. One was for an AZ814. This beastie had a die cast "backbone" (really more-or-less a plate) to which sub-assemblies were bolted. The sub-assemblies were made up of small castings and bits of stamped sheet metal and ... all bolted together. More recently I dismantled some AGI F135 aerial cameras. Same concept, numerous small pieces bolted together and to a gorgeous die cast box with central plate. After the AZ814 Canon replaced the built-up sub-assemblies with die castings.

They're built like that because it's a very cheap and effective means of mass manufacture. It costs quite a bit ($10k-$100k+) to make the stamping die, but once you've done so the incremental cost of production is basically zero. If you want ten thousand of something, you think REALLY HARD about how you could possibly stamp it out.

On the whole, using a milling machine as wombat-to-go does seems a better approach to making a view camera than using flat pieces and many fasteners. And as far as I know all of the metal view cameras made so far contain castings and milled pieces with relatively few fasteners.

Have a look instead at some wooden cameras and observe their construction methods. They're made out of lots of flat stuff joined together with a small selection of metal parts for the tricky bits.

Milling a camera from the solid is going to be extremely expensive in both materials cost and tool time, and result in an incredibly heavy camera.

 

[polyglot]

Looking around, it seems that a hobby laser cutter that can only do wood and plastic, including accessories is around $3000+.
Laser cutting service looks like about $30+ per camera sized piece in non metal.

More like $800 from China.

I am learning that it is often easier to do cylindical/disc shapes on the lathe, than rectangular with an end mill. (That essentially reduces the shape to 2D from 3D)
Also a lot of the work is cylindical anyway, associated withe adaptors for shutter and lenses.

So here is my thought for the day from this thread: (And don't hold me to it !)
What about a DIY metal field -type camera that is basically cylindrical - just with a rectangular orifice for the back ?)

Cylindrical bellows? Or will it be a simple extending-sleeve-focus only, no movements? IMHO as soon as you introduce tilt and swing at at least one end, that introduces a fundamentally rectangular form to the camera.

Here are photos of another - fabrication method used on the camera I am working on now.

If nothing else, it will make a good self-defence weapon!

 

[Mark Fisher]

Most laser cutters are not powerful enough to cut metal, but some are. Laser cutters and waterjet cutters can only cut 2D shapes, but with bending and a few fasteners, 2D shapes become 3D forms. View camera really don't require much precision. The only really critical dimension it the ground glass position. The sliding parts can always be shimmed or assembled with slots. Anyway, back to the original poster's comment. Just get a free CAD package like the one mentioned (I'm not a fan of sketchup) and give it a go. It is a bit difficult to learn at first, but with a few tutorials, you can probably learn enough to do what you want to do. There used to be a laser cut kit called the Bulldog 4x5 that was made out of MDF. I'm in the middle of making an 8x10 with just a table saw and handtools, but may breakdown and waterjet cut the metal parts when I get that far. One of the problems with laser cutting metal is that aluminum doesn't work well for laser cutting. It is fairly reflective and highly thermally conductive. I suspect that brass may have the same problem. Waterjet is better for aluminum. If you just print out the patterns full size and stick them onto the metal, it isn't hard to cut out the shapes with a jig saw or a band saw and file the corners as needed.
Also, if you really need 3D CNC cutting, it isn't that expensive to get 3D CNC done if you have a 3D solid CAD file (like an IGES or STEP file)

 

[Steve Smith]

Laser cutters and waterjet cutters can only cut 2D shapes

A laser cutter generally works in two ways. Either it cuts linearly in vector (lines) or it can raster etch solid areas. I can use our laser to make 3D objects using a combination of raster and vector cutting - and regularly do.


Steve.

 

[wombat2go]

For PolyGlot's comments:
-Yes I think a cylindrical bag bellows made of 2 annuli bonded at periphery would be neat and simple for home builder.

-I have only just started to think about a cylindical body, but my initial thoughts are that a thin wall tubular body that can be silver brazed ( steel, stainless or brass) might be simpler for diy builder, easier to make light tight with continous brazed joints, and compete in weight with wood or plastic (**below). Even though these metals have ~10 times density of wood, they can be thin because they have ~10 times the yield strength and Young's modulus.

Before assembly of a metal camera, the bores and internal sufaces have to be antireflectively coated . I learned when making adaptors for M43, that this makes a big difference in contrast and sharpness of the lens.
It is quite a job.
So far I use 3 coating types, after washing the 6061 alloy in denatured alcohol and no primer:
Rustoleum Flat black by a small brush to seal joints and coat internal nuts and washers
Krylon Camo Ulta Flat in a spray can
Protostar Telescope flocking

The first 2 work OK but tend to flake off on subsequent dis-assembly of the camera.
The flocking has the highest emissivity I think approaching unity , so I use it in where direct reflection from/to the film/sensor is possible.
I also use the flocking for light tight gaskets, it compresses fairly consistently to a repeatable thickness.
http://www.fpi-protostar.com/flock.htm
Pehaps this is a candidate for the laser cutting service?


** Photo of the latest steel framed body in progress. "Fromm_Body" after his suggestion.
So far with the RH10 back as shown , but less vf and lens, weighs 1109 gram and I have a bit of front structure to complete.
Now a Baby Crown, of wood with RH10 and less lens, weighs 1535 gram.

Of course, the Takumar lenses I am using weigh far more than the Graflex ones so the Baby Crown will still win on weight, I think.

 

[Steve Smith]

That self adhesive flocking would probably be o.k. for laser cutting if you can get it to lay flat.

The only thing we're not supposed to cut on it is PVC.


Steve.

 

[Dan Fromm]

For PolyGlot's comments:
-Yes I think a cylindrical bag bellows made of 2 annuli bonded at periphery would be neat and simple for home builder.

Wombat, did I ever show you the bag bellows I made of two square sheets of wet suit neoprene bonded at the periphery? There's little simpler and easier in that line. The big problem, if the bellows is to be used on a modular camera with interchangeable bellows, is the bellows frames.

As it turned out, after a month or so the neoprene cement used for bonding failed. So I bonded it again, my wife sewed the edges and for appearance (the stuff isn't opaque) I put wet suit tape around the edges.

If I didn't show it to you, pictures that show version one are at http://1drv.ms/1quhwYY

Polyglot, thanks for your comments. I understand the economics of mass production. Canon started out making imitation Leicas, took quite some time after they started producing in volume to wean themselves from Leica's artisanal methods. The development of their Super 8 cine cameras shows them learning the modern way.

 

[Mark Fisher]

Steve is absolutely correct. That said. I've only heard of people use it for etching the surface for appearance (letters, images) but not precise depths like a 3 axis mill.