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pbromaghin

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My point being that while puptent couldn't get this sold for $29 plus shipping, there are those of us out here in the great unwashed who can see artistic merit when given a little nudge from those with a proclivity toward modern art. As several posters have written, context matters. However, what is really offputting is the "I'm in with the in crowd, I go where the in crowd goes" snobbery.

Take a look at puptent's stuff. You can sniff at it all you want, but I love it because he finds beauty and interest I never thought to exist in things I passed by every day in an area where I used to live. It doesn't matter to me that it's nothing but another damned barn or corn silo, he found it where nobody else did.
 
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More power to anyone who can make that kind of money from their art. If I thought I could do the same then I certainly would.

How much of it went to the artist? Probably nothing. Sounds like it was in private ownership.
 

Early Riser

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Greg, you really think she gave it all that thought BEFORE she took the photo? That all sounds like post exposure rationalization. That same type of description could be used on a million images. You could look at some lifestyle type clothing catalogs and be able to use a similar descriptor. You could look at a copy of Playboy magazine and use the same explanation for it's nudes. The problem I have with the image, besides it looking like it was done by a first year photo student, is that it requires all that verbiage to have a sense of purpose, that the image itself doesn't stand on it's own any more than any portrait of a woman or an advertisement.
 

puptent

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Yeah, but you know what, she DIDN"T make a lot of money off of this sale. It might improve her future asking prices, but she's been, I don't know, removed from the marketplace with the exception of the cache of her name. In this instance, I think she has become more of a BRAND. Now, who wouldn't like to be a brand? What kid strumming a six string doesn't want to be the next Bruce Springsteen? Who hasn't looked at Half Dome and thought, I'm The Next Ansil Adams? Or could be. I think the bottom line is that an auction like this has been good for art photographers everywhere. Prices may not go up across the board, but COLLECTORS, and I am one, are going to be revitalized. Art is where you find it.
I'd love to be in her shoes, well, not if they're heels...
 

removed account4

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heck, look at uncle earle ...
he shot glass plates from the same perspective
the same everything as adams
and his work was at a garage sale until someone THOUGHT
they were adam's images ... not sure after all the hype they
are worth much more than what they were paid for, seeing they were made by earle, not ansel ...

personally, i am kind of tired of all the west coast grand landscape stuff, i would rather look at cindy sherman's work any day ...
 

puptent

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I just used Uncle Adams as an example. When I first looked at this image I felt a sadness I would relate to a broken heart. If her eyes had been closed I would have thought suicide... But anyway, Sherman made the best photograph that she could, and she placed it for sale, maybe in a gallery, maybe with an agent, but the picture went into the market place. Some people liked it, and some people liked it a lot, and some people thought that it might prove to be a good investment. Some people didn't like it at all, and they might not have been bidding at Christie's. On balance, I think it is a good thing for the rest of us when a fellow photographer acheives a level like this. She might just drag us along with her. I hope she celebrated in some fashion when she got the news of the sale. I would have.
 

kwall

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IMO, Sherman's work in the Complete Untitled Film Stills series is terrific. If someone wants to pay nearly $4,000,000 for it, well, must be nice to have that kind of loose change.
 

kwall

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Yes, I do believe it is a significant piece of art, not that I would normally go around parading that belief, but in light of such ridiculous hostility, I for one will stand up for it.
[...]

Show me another picture with a horizon, a tree, and a stream, or a bridge and I'll shoot myself. Give me something with intrigue, give me something with a unique perspective that confuses the squares... THAT'S ART.

What he said.
 

kwall

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If that's what your Aunt Mabel's photographs look like, you need to get her an AGENT!

No, but seriously, this is the kind of nose-up interpretation of "modern art" that is all too prevalent.

Except that Sherman herself is on record giving these sorts of "nose-up interpretations" of her work.

Greg has provided an interpretation, but it is only one of an infinite number of interpretations. Modern art is supposed to be thought provoking, and yet I think a lot of people get turned off because they don't agree with the interpretations that are generally touted.

Agreed.

I think the pink elephant in this room is that there is a huge social rift between people that like and don't like this kind of art.

I've decided that some art is meant to be consumed by other artists, not by the Great Unwashed such as myself.
 
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It would be an interesting social experiment to place these art pieces, or atleast good copies, from these auctions in a flea market or a street side art table, like the multitudes I see everyday in NYC, and see how much attention they bring, or if anyone would walk up and buy it.


(Kinda like this)
http://www.snopes.com/music/artists/bell.asp
 

Kevin Caulfield

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It would be an interesting social experiment to place these art pieces, or atleast good copies, from these auctions in a flea market or a street side art table, like the multitudes I see everyday in NYC, and see how much attention they bring, or if anyone would walk up and buy it.


(Kinda like this)
http://www.snopes.com/music/artists/bell.asp

Thanks for posting that link. It's a very interesting article and raises many questions.
 

hoffy

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I won't quote from pages ago (I am lazy trying to find the response to my response).

Sherman to me, and her images, are an enigma. Are they self portraits? Or is she playing the part of an actor? What is she really trying to achieve? Is it feminism, or is it a window into her own life. For me personally, this stimulates my thought process and my imagination. As a whole, this works for me and as art is mission accomplished.

Again, like Shaw, these pictures need to be taken in context. Seeing these pictures by themselves is not being fair on the artist.

I do agree that $4m US (oh, hang on, that’s about $1.50 Australian now :wink: ) is beyond what anyone should pay for any art.
 

patrickjames

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Without saying anything about this Sherman image (which isn't my cup of tea), great art is not about the object, but about the idea and the intent. You may have been able to take a photograph like this, but did you do it in 1981? Check out he Rothko painting ( http://www.christies.com/LotFinder/...7825&sid=0435120b-e66a-4a6e-b65a-e5477687dbce ) that sold for $33 million. How hard was that to make?

These huge dollar sales used to annoy me, but at this point I realize that it doesn't matter and I don't really care. That is a whole different world so unless you are in it, and I doubt many people here are (or will admit to it anyway), the image might as well sell for 3 billion. At that end of the art market, tons of money gets pumped in. I don't think very much flows downward. Perhaps it puts a different perspective on cheaper works. Keep in mind too that once the piece leaves the artists hands they pretty much don't make any moolah from it. If Sherman was smart enough back in the 80's she would have held on to some of the work. Maybe she did. She certainly would be a wealthy enough woman now if she had. There are a lot of collectors that want to find the next Sherman.
 

benjiboy

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When it comes to discussing art, these kind of "oh I could do that" comments irritate me, along with the "artsy fartsy" allusions. Do you really think that is all that's involved?

I think it's a knee-jerk response, and there is always the accompanying aroma of jealously.

Benji, please explain why this "isn't even a good photograph".

Let me answer your question with another one, if this image was put on APUG Gallery by me as my work with an audience of almost fifty thousand photographers, how many of them would you think would be falling over themselves proclaiming what a great work of art it is ?
 

SuzanneR

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I remember seeing this image, and several others... huge color prints that had incredible presence back in a Soho gallery in the early 80's. Wish I had the money to buy one then, (they were expensive, but considerably less than $4mil) I think her intention is very clear in this picture, and with or without explanations it's an awesome piece of work... this does not look like a random snap forgotten at Walgreens. Bravo to Cindy, let's hope the art market makes a nice healthy rebound, and maybe some of us will see a few more print sales this year.
 

Early Riser

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I'm sure she plans her photographs to some extent, most notably her wardrobe. However all of that detailed analytical BS was post exposure and at the time of capture she's not even looking in the camera.

The "tiny box" that I view photography with is quite simple. The major points being that work needs to have content of merit and it needs to be able to stand on it's own without someone having to tell you why it's so good or meaningful. And my POV did not come from being purely academic about photography, and mind you I both studied photography as my major and taught photography at SVA, but from having assisted notable and talented photographers and learning their value system. I then spent the next 34 years putting that into professional practice. I've been paid to produce photographs of nearly every photographic genre, some 3000 assignments, more than 25,000 photographs. I know exactly what it takes to create any image.

That period of "post modernism in the 1980's that used advertising and commercial images as inspiration". To me that's just creative laziness. Copy an image from an ad or catalog, and copy it badly at that, and then apply some art speak to it, and viola, an image that would be rejected from a catalog becomes "art". It's the same BS that gives artists like Richard Prince the seeming approval to plagiarize someone's photograph and with the magic of artspeak sell it for 7 figures.

Sherman was all about politics. You had a vast number of women MFAs getting jobs as curators, art writers, gallery directors or owners, and Sherman's work was one they could project their own views on. To me her work is narcissistic, which also reflects a seeming fascination that women have with images of themselves and other women. But that doesn't make the images good.

Again back to my "tiny box", to me a successful image should be one that does not require ANY context, or any coincidence of timing and politics. You should be able to drop an image into any place, any culture, at any time, and those viewing it with nothing but the image itself to go by, will still be able to relate to it. Apply that to Sherman's work and see what you get.
 

Steve Smith

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work needs to have content of merit and it needs to be able to stand on it's own without someone having to tell you why it's so good or meaningful.

I agree with this.

and viola, an image that would be rejected from a catalog becomes "art".

Where does the oversized violin fit into it?!!


Steve.
 

warden

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Again back to my "tiny box", to me a successful image should be one that does not require ANY context, or any coincidence of timing and politics. You should be able to drop an image into any place, any culture, at any time, and those viewing it with nothing but the image itself to go by, will still be able to relate to it. Apply that to Sherman's work and see what you get.

I agree, that is an incredibly small box.

Thankfully we can all have different sizes of "boxes", some big enough to include context and the passage of time as a foundation for understanding and appreciating works of art.
 

ostgardlaw

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Sherman was all about politics. You had a vast number of women MFAs getting jobs as curators, art writers, gallery directors or owners, and Sherman's work was one they could project their own views on. To me her work is narcissistic, which also reflects a seeming fascination that women have with images of themselves and other women. But that doesn't make the images good.

Again back to my "tiny box", to me a successful image should be one that does not require ANY context, or any coincidence of timing and politics. You should be able to drop an image into any place, any culture, at any time, and those viewing it with nothing but the image itself to go by, will still be able to relate to it. Apply that to Sherman's work and see what you get.
[/QUOTE]

I am very grateful to Greg for his illumination of Ms. Sherman’s work and the image in question.

If we don’t know anything about rocks, they all look the same. If we don’t know anything about furniture, we just see old tables at the estate sale. We can be master stonemasons or master carpenters, but we’ll never experience the thrill of the geologist or the antique collector at the recognition of an outstanding specimen unless we permit ourselves to continue being ‘students’ even after we’ve become ‘masters.’

I have seen several APUG members assert a notion similar to the second paragraph of the quoted text above, and I don’t understand this. When you say “ . . . those viewing it . . .” do you mean every viewer, all viewers, all the time? When you say “ . . . be able to relate to it”, do you mean able to like or approve of the image, or have a prescribed emotional reaction? (I take it a politically-offended reaction does not qualify as ‘relating’ to an image). When you say a successful image does not require “ANY” context (emphasis in the original) when dropped into any culture, must an image of a gleaming espresso maker be meaningful and ‘relatable’ to an aboriginal or to a slum dweller in an undeveloped country? This is a hyperbolic example of course, the point being there are innumerable examples of great images for which the addition of at least some context greatly improves the viewer’s appreciation. You all come awfully close to suggesting that to be successful an image must appeal to the lowest common denominator among viewers and I can’t believe you mean that. That’s television. Certainly not everyone relates to or appreciates Italian opera, or Bach, or a Picasso or a Rothco. These are not successful works? They are not art?

Those who, like me, are reading this thread seeking an understanding of the art of photography and specifically the art of Cindy Sherman, should keep in mind Ansel Adams’ remark about there being two people in every photograph - the photographer and the viewer. Sometimes we have to try to understand what the photographer is really saying. Sometimes, when the viewer expresses an opinion, we have to try to understand what the viewer is really saying. Ms. Sherman’s work definitely intends to convey a ‘political’ view, and many of her critics, both those who approve and those who condemn, react at least in part depending upon their own political point of view. A lot of art criticism has a political foundation. In the ‘60s and ‘70s, critics on the left condemned landscapes and the art of "dead white men" as irrelevant. Today critics on the right condemn art which isn’t literal or idealistic, especially art which is ironic or questions certain values or promotes values like feminism. Those who insist that “art” must always be free of politics are almost always reacting to a piece of art which offends them politically. If you are inspired by photographers like Cindy Sherman, then you should not be at all troubled by criticism coming from those who reject feminist ideals. Her work is still art, and should still inspire.

Context is essential. Does anyone here today believe the images of Robert Frank are not ‘successful’? Yet his images collected in “The Americans” were widely condemned and dismissed as art here in the United States when they were first published, at a time when conservative and nationalistic values dominated our culture and his work was interpreted as critical of the American way of life. Today, I hope, his work is nearly universally recognized for the great art it is. The context and the culture have changed.

And about the $4M bid – Forbes lists 400 people in the United States alone who are worth at least $1 billion (and how many hundreds more are worth 0.8 and 0.9 billion dollars?). If one of these guys at the bottom of that list liquidated and put all that money into a basic bank account, he or she would still be earning at least 2 or 3 million dollars every month. How many German sports cars and Italian villas, and how much south Pacific island real estate do you need before you decide to drop some of your chump change on a work of art, especially if it means you can throw in an extra hundred grand to outbid one of your fellow billionaires? I agree with Suzanne R; when people see that much money spent on a photograph, they get interested in collecting photographs. That’s just got to be good for all of us.

Jim Ostgard, Minneapolis
 
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