120 backing paper and spools ... Fujifilm distinction, Ilford/Harman fail!

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John Wiegerink

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Hi John, no need to defend yourself to me. I understand you although I don’t necessarily agree. Engineering changes, even those that are seemingly easy, can be complex and costly… and impossible to fully understand the decisions and trade space unless one is part of the engineering team.

You were not the source of “Ilford don’t care”; apparently that’s an impression that was given to another member.

The problem in every one of these discussions is that the bulk of the information stated or recited is not supported by documentation. Im trusting but “trust me” sources tend to incite a desire for authoritative first-hand verifiable sources. So far, the only verifiable source seems to be the interview with a Kodak Product Manager linked earlier.

Good luck with your experiment. Should be interesting.
No problem Brian and I have never directly tried to offend any single person, even if I disagree with them, on this site. Not my style at all. I do like the interview with Kodak's Product Manager. That's exactly how a business solves the problem of people badmouthing them without knowing the facts from first hand knowledgeable people. Really very simple thing to do, but it's seems very hard to get some of these companies or enterprises to do just that. Yes, I'm very curious to see what happens to Ilford's film emulsion next to Foma's paper and ink. If nothing else it will at least prove to me that I was right in my way of thinking or that I was dead wrong. Either way, I will post the results of my findings. It could very well be that I am 100% off track, but at least I'll know.
 
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mshchem

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Interesting to see how this works out. I had a Fotoman 6x12 camera that used a red window and numbers, this was 20 years ago. Even then I had to go easy and make sure I didn't miss my number. Everything I shoot now is "auto"
 

MattKing

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Hi Matt. Just for context and not intended to be confrontational. Most industries transitioned to soy-based inks about 3 decades ago.

Which was about when Eastman Kodak probably last manufactured and printed backing paper - they were left with years of inventory when the film market imploded.
And it was only after that inventory ran out, and they had to find new sources, that they saw the huge uptick in wrapper offset problems.
If I understand things correctly, that was also about when Ilford started to have to revise the printing, and their numbers became much dimmer.
 

Agulliver

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It's worth remembering that at the time that Harman had to change their backing paper (was it 2018/19?), their access to R&D costs was vastly lower than that available to Kodak. It's not that they didn't care, or used a 3rd class intern...they did the best they could.

It is just about possible that with the recent injection of investment from Lloyds, aimed at R&D, there might be some improvements. Though I would imagine most of that R&D will be put to colour film.
 
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ChrisGalway

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What I miss are the Fuji Easy-Load spools. I've saved up a number of them. Just that slightly more convex top and bottom surface did make a distinct difference in ease of loading. The current Acros II film doesn't use them. I wonder who owns the patent.

Yes, those nice Fujifilm spools still come with Provia 100f 120 film, and they are excellent. I have a DaYi 6x12 back for one of my stereo cameras, and both Kodak and Ilford spools are a VERY tight fit, it's difficult to get them in and more difficult to get them out. The Fuji ones go in and out like a treat.

As I've said in previous posts, I feel Fuji gave some thought to the whole packaging aspect of their 120 roll film and they actually got photographers involved. Everything works so well.

So of course it's a real pity that it's been very difficult to get hold of 120 Provia for a couple of years now! It comes into stock every 4-6 months at some suppliers in Europe, and goes out-of-stock in a matter of minutes.
 

John Wiegerink

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As much as I pitch a bitch I do realize that things are never going to be the same as they were back in the 70's, 80's and 90's for us film slaves. It's just a fact of life and marketing, sad as it may seem. Still, a few little tweaks to a product can make for a happier user base and possibly more steady sales. Of course those tweaks will never happen if folks don't complain, stop buying a product or the tweak is cost prohibitive. The squeaky wheel theory does work, but not always. At least we can buy a quality film from Harmon/Ilford even if the packaging isn't to our liking. Better than no product at all!
 

mshchem

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Which was about when Eastman Kodak probably last manufactured and printed backing paper - they were left with years of inventory when the film market imploded.
And it was only after that inventory ran out, and they had to find new sources, that they saw the huge uptick in wrapper offset problems.
If I understand things correctly, that was also about when Ilford started to have to revise the printing, and their numbers became much dimmer.

I wonder if the sparse availability of Fujichrome films may be related to, not entirely the coating process, but the availability of the cassettes, and backing papers etc??

I'm glad that Kodak has resolved. I've never had problems with any manufacturer, but I treat film to it's own full size fridge.
 

Dali

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I don't use Fuji films so I cannot comment on them but Foma numbers on backing paper are way more visible than Ilford/Harman. I don't know the profound reason why I/H numbers are so pale and I don't care as I speak from a consumer's standpoint like 99% of us here.
 

BrianShaw

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Quite possibly this is not of interest to some, but should be to most. Probably posted before and seemingly appropriate to post again. Although a marketing product, I tend to take it at face value… specifically regarding the Ilford sincerity. (I sure wish there were more technical/business details, though, as it would save us from speculation and hypothetical scenarios.)


 
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pentaxuser

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So has Ilford simply been unlucky in its choice of emulsion compared to Kodak and Fuji? In Kodak's case it seems it had to spend a lot of money to solve the problem from what Matt says. Is this the kind of money Ilford cannot afford?

I am not sure how Fuji has avoided this problem of backing paper's not interfering with denser printing. Was it just sheer luck?

I don't think that Ilford deliberately ignores any of its customers but what I do accept is that like any other company that needs to stay in business it will work out what it might cost to cure the problem that affects users of red window cameras and from that work out the cost to benefit involved

In that sense Ilford is no different to any other company and will thus ignore such customers

pentaxuser
 

pentaxuser

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It's worth remembering that at the time that Harman had to change their backing paper (was it 2018/19?), their access to R&D costs was vastly lower than that available to Kodak. It's not that they didn't care, or used a 3rd class intern...they did the best they could.

It is just about possible that with the recent injection of investment from Lloyds, aimed at R&D, there might be some improvements. Though I would imagine most of that R&D will be put to colour film.

Might it just be that Ilford solved the problem for the vast majority of 120 users with the cheapest option of fainter inks. Yes it might mean that red camera users will suffer but how many of 120 sales are to such users and the cost to benefit for Ilford just "does not compute"?

pentaxuser
 

BrianShaw

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So has Ilford simply been unlucky in its choice of emulsion compared to Kodak and Fuji? In Kodak's case it seems it had to spend a lot of money to solve the problem from what Matt says. Is this the kind of money Ilford cannot afford?

I am not sure how Fuji has avoided this problem of backing paper's not interfering with denser printing. Was it just sheer luck?

I don't think that Ilford deliberately ignores any of its customers but what I do accept is that like any other company that needs to stay in business it will work out what it might cost to cure the problem that affects users of red window cameras and from that work out the cost to benefit involved

In that sense Ilford is no different to any other company and will thus ignore such customers

pentaxuser

For every engineering project I've ever known, there are multiple potential solutions available to achieve the desired solution. Same is true with this problem. What we know for fact is that two different solutions were implemented by two different manufacturers to resolve the same/similar (and seemingly rather uncommon) problem. Any discussion of how much those solutions cost seems so speculative that they are worth accepting as intersting yet unsubstantiated hypothesis/hyperbole. So why do we keep hanging a hat on this line of thinking? Why would the cost of a minor re-engineering project really be know to anyone outside of the inner project/accounting circle? Let's face it... none of these film makers are forthcoming about their finances at anything close to a detailed level, let alone this microscopic level.

It is highly likely that both chose the most inexpensive solution to solving the problem. The cost might not be the same for both companies so it could be very difficult to determine, relatively speaking, which solution is most economically advantagious. Wht we can judge is the relative effectiveness of each solution.

It might be better to consider the user impact numbers from a marketing and user volume perspective. Ilford stated that "less than 1.5 complaints for every 10,000 rolls of 120 film" were affected. (and, yes, I realize that not every person affected sent in a complaint; I knowthat I did not.) Of that small number, it is likely that a smalll percentegage were people, me included, who still use exceedingly-archaic red-window cameras. That's a very subset of a small population to go out of one's way to please.

"I am not sure" should be "WE are not sure"... and it should extend beyond just Fuji :smile:

(Please forgive any typos that I diod nto correct; it seems I need a new keyboard; or, at least. to get the sticky goo off of this one.)
 
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MattKing

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It also might be the case that almost all the current growth - as such as it is - in 120 film use is mainly amongst those who have younger eyes!
I am quite sure that 20 year old me would have had far less difficulty with the modern, fainter numbers than 68 year old me does.
 
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ChrisGalway

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I wonder if the sparse availability of Fujichrome films may be related to, not entirely the coating process, but the availability of the cassettes, and backing papers etc??

.......

Could be, but surely more likely their limited capacity for coating and the runaway success (and high margins?) of Instax. I'm afraid Fujichrome is small potatoes compared to Instax.
 

BrianShaw

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... and the nice Fuji touch of the hole/slot-catch in the spool ... someone at Fuji actually put some thought into this.

They did! Fun facts: These innovative features were patented, world-wide, about 2000-2001. Some of the individuals we can thank are
Teruyoshi Makino, Jun Inose, Ayako Okubo, Ryuji Uemura, Shunichi Hosaka, Masayoshi Nagata, and Yukiyoshi Ishii.
 
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ChrisGalway

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They did! Fun facts: These innovative features were patented, world-wide, about 2000-2001. Some of the individuals we can thank are
Teruyoshi Makino, Jun Inose, Ayako Okubo, Ryuji Uemura, Shunichi Hosaka, Masayoshi Nagata, and Yukiyoshi Ishii.

Amazing, do you have a reference or link to the patent (I'll need to use Google translate though!)
 

John Wiegerink

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It also might be the case that almost all the current growth - as such as it is - in 120 film use is mainly amongst those who have younger eyes!
I am quite sure that 20 year old me would have had far less difficulty with the modern, fainter numbers than 68 year old me does.
Yup, them young whipper-snappers do have better eyes, but I'm very sure they would even have a hard time seeing numbers through the ruby window on my Wirgin. If I get a chance I'll take a digi shot today, in broad daylight, just to show you what I'm talking about. Oh, and both windows are spotless with no scratches. It's a good little picture taker, but those ruby windows leave something to be desired.
 

mshchem

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They did! Fun facts: These innovative features were patented, world-wide, about 2000-2001. Some of the individuals we can thank are
Teruyoshi Makino, Jun Inose, Ayako Okubo, Ryuji Uemura, Shunichi Hosaka, Masayoshi Nagata, and Yukiyoshi Ishii.

Yes, I had a little Fuji 645 that used the barcode to DXish set the film speed. I have squirreled away several dozen Fujifilm spools, when I get (older and more decrepit) I have a 1/4" punch that I can use the Fujifilm EZ-Load system for all films 😎 😁

My go to cameras are Fuji 6x9 and 6x8. The last version III, has the best spool ejector system I've ever used.
 
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