10 worst college majors for your career

film_man said:

Medicine, law, engineering, science are things that you don't just do with an 11th grade education and some books from the local library no matter how good you are.

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I work as an electronic and mechanical design engineer. I don't have a degree.


Steve.

Steve Smith said:

I work as an electronic and mechanical design engineer. I don't have a degree.


Steve.

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Ok, tell us then. How old are you, when did you start (as an apprentice perhaps?) and what did you do for your first 2-3 years on the job.

film_man said:

Ok, tell us then. How old are you, when did you start (as an apprentice perhaps?) and what did you do for your first 2-3 years on the job.

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I'm 50, no apprenticeship. First job straight from high school in a small microsystems company for a couple of years then three years as test engineer in another small company and now in my 27th year at a larger company owned by a huge multinational company. Started as test engineer and migrated into current role.


Steve.

Steve Smith said:

I'm 50, no apprenticeship. First job straight from high school in a small microsystems company for a couple of years then three years as test engineer in another small company and now in my 27th year at a larger company owned by a huge multinational company. Started as test engineer and migrated into current role.


Steve.

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Ok, so effectively you didn't exactly start as an electronic/mechanical engineer but evolved into the job with, I suppose, plenty of training on the job (formal or informal), correct? Plenty of people like that and that's all great and in my line of work I met lots of people migrating from testing/QA/shopfloor into software/electronics/mechanical but if you were to start straight in your current role in any significant capacity would you be able to do that straight as a school leaver? Would you, with what you know now, hire a school leaver to do mechnical/electronic design over a graduate without taking them in a secondary role so they can learn a few things first?

Google won't hire you to write software without at least a basic computer science degree and Intel won't get you designing microchips without at least some specialist VLSI degree. Just like Merck and Glaxo won't let you in a lab to mix up the chemicals without such a degree and for things like that they never would even if you worked for them all your life.

Being self-taught is great and I admire people that do it, it can work in many fields and professions but like that other person saying that universities produce drones that can't think for themselves is just ridiculous. The modern world would be decades back without these people.

In the end, a university is, at least in theory and hopefully in practice if it is a good one, accelerated and targeted training plus a space to meet, network and work with relevant people. This provides an invaluable experience that in many cases just cannot be duplicated by, let's say, walking into a theatre and working your way up to managing it.

Anyway, that's all I had to say in this. I value education, I value what a university degree offers (which is a lot more than just what you read in books) and I hope my children end up studying something in university even if they decide to do something completely different in the end.

film_man said:

Would you, with what you know now, hire a school leaver to do mechnical/electronic design over a graduate

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Possibly. I remember we hired a graduate with a degree in electronic engineering a few years ago. He was hopeless. He came to me and asked which way round an LED should be connected. Basic stuff I knew when I was five or six.

I am an exception to the rule though, I will admit. I am good at learning things for myself. I learned electronics initially from my grandfather (all valve) then by experimentation. I taught myself to use AutoCAD, to program Intel 8085s, Zilog Z80s, PIC processors etc. I taught myself to program and run our CNC router.

I appreciate that I probably couldn't get a job similar to mine now if I tried as most companies have an application process which screens out non graduate applicants.

Doing that though filters out the likes of Richard Branson, Steve Jobs, Bill Gates and one of my heroes, Edwin Land (inventor of Polaroid photography). They all managed quite well without degrees. Some of them dropping out of university to achieve their goals.


Steve.

Like Steve Smith above, I always had "the knack" or the desire to tinker and learn how things work and - most importantly - a good mind's eye for how things are put together. I went to a university not to learn about how things work, but rather to learn to think like an engineer so I could make new things without trial and error.

I then taught myself lens design on the job. After several years, I then went back to grad school (while still working) to fill in the holes.

Going to school before being in the real world and after working for a while are two entirely different experiences. One is like learning to walk in the dark and the other is examining (and refining) your work after turning on the lights. Both experiences are unique and important in their own right.

Nodda Duma said:

I then went back to grad school (while still working) to fill in the holes.

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I suppose I should have done that. It's too late now and I can't afford it. And if I could, I would probably study law instead!


Steve.

Steve Smith said:

I suppose I should have done that. It's too late now and I can't afford it. And if I could, I would probably study law instead!


Steve.

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Well, granted I wasn't about to shell out the dough to go back to school. Way too expensive. Instead, I got the Navy to pay for it

What is a degree is worth? This question has changed of the past 50 years. In the 1930s and 40s only about 40% of the American population had a high school degree, 10% a college degree, less than 5% a graduate degree. In the 50s America invested a lot of money in expanding the public schools, the GI bill and community colleges made college affordable. Today 80% of kids graduate high school, and many of those who don’t graduate obtain a GED. 33.5% to 43% (depending on which set of stats we look at) of us have college degree, 60% to 70% have attended college, so in some respects a college degree has replaced a high school degree in the labor market. In the 50s, 60,s or 70s a degree in any field was enough to get your foot in the door. This is becoming less and less true; employers want a specific skill set.

Still a degree is important, those with a college degree will earn much more than those with a high school degree. There are exceptions; my plumber makes as much as I do.

Colleges and Universities still offer a wide range of what are considered liberal arts degrees, history, literature, art history to name only a few, these degrees are historically the core of the American liberal arts educational system.

Many are called few are chosen, a person with BFA or even a MFA in photography is less competitive outside that field; transferable skills may lead to jobs in graphic design, mass communication, animation, still a limited market. The number of students majoring in photography exceeds the labor market. For those who become photographers the national mean is $37,190, less than what my plumber makes, and my plumber does not have student loans to repay.

I never went to university but i once asked one of my children what sort of job or career he intended to pursue with the degree he was thinking of studying for at the age of seventeen, his reply was "Oh, Dad university are places you go to get an education they aren't trade training schools when I graduate I might want to be a bus driver," this concerned myself and my wife greatly at the time, but everything turned out well in the end.

benjiboy said:

when I graduate I might want to be a bus driver," this concerned myself and my wife greatly at the time, but everything turned out well in the end.

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What's wrong with being a bus driver?

Actually I know someone with a degree in English Literature who was a bus driver for a few years.


Steve.

Nodda Duma said:

Well, granted I wasn't about to shell out the dough to go back to school. Way too expensive. Instead, I got the Navy to pay for it

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Me too. It was a better education in many ways than mere colleges and universities. It also qualified me for a post-retirement job that paid three times as much for less responsible work. Then I finally went to college on the G.I. bill just for the pleasure of learning in an academic environment. Sacrifices early in life can be a wonderful investment.

Come visit this part of the world, Steve. For instance, it's very difficult to get a job driving a city bus in San Francisco. They are fussy who
they hire, and you have to have a particularly impressive resume, like several DUI convictions, a few hit-and-run felonies. ... it helps to have
some special brownie points, like running over someone in a wheelchair, at least once. Then there is a medical test, to make certain you're
color-blind and can't see a red stoplight.

Steve Smith said:

What's wrong with being a bus driver?

Actually I know someone with a degree in English Literature who was a bus driver for a few years.


Steve.

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Nothings wrong with being a bus driver Steve, he was just saying that education isn't just to equip a person to make money but to teach them how to think rationally, absorb information, and become educated, if the person doesn't want to practice what he as learned as a career option and wants to do something else that's up to him/her.

benjiboy said:

...he was just saying that education isn't just to equip a person to make money but to teach them how to think rationally, absorb information, and become educated...

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And therein lies the problem. All those things should be accomplished in a public primary and secondary school educational system by the time students graduate high school, i.e. finish 12th grade. But they're not, so colleges/universities end up trying to fill the void. Thereby devaluing Bachelor's degrees to where they're generally worth as much as a high school diploma was 50 years ago.

This backsliding isn't new. Several decades ago I was executor for a number of elderly relatives' estates. Second generation US immigrants, they'd been born from 1907 to 1920, and spoke no English until reaching first grade in the New York City public schools. While cleaning out the houses, I found much of their school work from elementary and high school. In my opinion, based on the material covered, their high school diplomas ought carry as much weight as a liberal arts Bachelor's degree awarded during the era I attended college, i.e. the 1970s.

How about..

RalphLambrecht said:

Today,You are not worth much with a degree and even less without one.So, what's the choice?

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An apprenticeship program like Germany. The trades like plumming and auto shops can't hire enough people. So apprenticeships can be an alternative to college. Bill Gates and Steve Jobs are not college graduates.

The qualification is of no consequence. It's what you achieve with it that counts.

This backsliding isn't new. Several decades ago I was executor for a number of elderly relatives' estates. Second generation US immigrants, they'd been born from 1907 to 1920, and spoke no English until reaching first grade in the New York City public schools. While cleaning out the houses, I found much of their school work from elementary and high school. In my opinion, based on the material covered, their high school diplomas ought carry as much weight as a liberal arts Bachelor's degree awarded during the era I attended college, i.e. the 1970s.[/QUOTE]

At one time I had a 1922 catalog from Harvard, 1920s, to get into Harvard the applicant needed 2 foreign languages, along with Latin, preferably Greek,
ready for college algebra, the summer prior to your Freshman year you were expected to read 20 or so books before starting classes.

In defense of very good colleges, I don't see how any one has time to study out side a major. In the 80 I took a classes, that was required at the time, to teach at Arizona Community Colleges. I wrote a paper exploring what a person had to know as psychology major in 1922 compared with 1980 or 81, when I made my presentation I found the books at ASU, I had two piles, the 1922 a short stake of 8 texts, 1981 over 20 books. Cramming what is taught in a traditional liberal arts degree and adding all of the specialized knowledge of the modern age in just 4 years. Just think about programming, how many langues in the 70s, FORTRAN, colbal, assembly, how many now?

Lots of people here are defensive about their choices. That said, the article does present valid statistics. If you choose art, then you'll likely struggle to make a living. Whether it is worth the struggle is a personal decision.

Interesting to see the varied reactions to the original article. By my own understanding the article brings to light that a Bachelor's degree in Photography is like nine other majors, in their relatively low (typical starting salary) Return on Investment (tuition)

• The article did not imply that you HAVE TO get a degree to get a job in the field; to the contrary they stated, ""With talented photographers getting hired with only a high school diploma..."
• The article did not imply that you CANNOT get a position in the field if you do not have a degree; to the contrary they said, "...getting hired with only a high school diploma, paying for four years of schooling is an expensive investment."
• The article did not imply that you cannot earn considerable larger salary in the field than the Mean/Median post-graduation salary. To the contrary they stated, "Starting salary: $36,200...A better bet: Still determined to work behind a camera? Try shooting subjects in motion with the skills you gain as a film production major. The median mid-career salary for grads holding this college major is a respectable $70,900"

Yet lots of rebuttals to the three above points, and others! Lots of defending chosen career paths.

Yet it seems that no effort has been made to disprove the fundamental premise of the article...the return of $36200 after paying for a college degree is a relatively low return on the investment. Truth is its own defense, as they teach first year law students.

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right on cliveh !
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Seems to me that part of the problem is the decline in the perceived value of photographers. A photographer is just someone who holds the camera. Any Joe can do that.
There is no board of certification or anything.

Anyone can look at the internet and help me buy a house. But a Realtor will make 9000$ on it because they are licensed. The knowledge they have could be learned in 15 minutes.

wiltw said:

Yet it seems that no effort has been made to disprove the fundamental premise of the article...the return of $36200 after paying for a college degree is a relatively low return on the investment. Truth is its own defense, as they teach first year law students.

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Maybe if you think of it in only financial terms (and the particular university is expensive). Life should be about more than money. How much is finding an avocation which satisfies your soul worth? What are you willing to sacrifice, monetarily, to wake up in the morning excited about the day ahead? What's it worth to never having to look back, in old age, and say, "what if...?" The article is from a source which measures success (and failure) in dollars (and cents). For those who measure such things differently, it's meaningless.

darinwc said:

Anyone can look at the internet and help me buy a house. But a Realtor will make 9000$ on it because they are licensed. The knowledge they have could be learned in 15 minutes.

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In our area, when you sign a listing contract, the realtors:

1) pay the listing fee with MLS;
2) pay to have dimensioned floor plans prepared;
3) pay for photos of the property;
4) pay to maintain the internet sites where photos and other details of the listings are presented;
5) pay for any and all newspaper advertising;
6) host agents' viewings; and

get paid nothing if the property doesn't sell.

Lots of agents lose lots of money. A fair number of the more successful ones make lots of money.

A meaningful number of agents lose lots of money at first, but eventually become successful.

Sort of like photographers who do everything practical to get a foothold in the market.

Mainecoonmaniac said:

An apprenticeship program like Germany.

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They are becoming popular again in the UK too. The company I work for has four apprentices and two who have finished apprenticeships.


Steve.