Developing Tri-X 400 in HC-110: Confusion over dev times

[Certain Exposures]

Does anybody know why Kodak does not publish an official set of times for Kodak HC-110 dilution E (or several others)? Only dilution A and B have published times in the data sheet I found. Have I missed a note in the document?

Also, the proper mixture of HC-110 compared to water for 1L total solution using dilution E is not specified. I wonder if that is because dilution B is the 'example' or because 1L is not recommended for some reason.

https://business.kodakmoments.com/sites/default/files/files/resources/j24.pdf

 

[MattKing]

Dilution E was probably one of the dilutions aimed at use by people in the graphics industry, or some other specialized use that would be more likely reflected in documentation for materials different than the types of photographic film we are more likely to use.
One of the main reasons for the existence of HC-110 was that it was intended to replace a whole raft of developers used in a variety of commercial settings.
It allowed Kodak to sell a single product to users who had previously needed to keep a bunch of different developers in inventory. Instead, those customers could keep just one type on the shelf, and use it for each separate use, with only a change of dilution being necessary.
Here is the link to the 2002 version of the datasheet: https://125px.com/docs/techpubs/kodak/j24-2002_10.pdf
My guess is that most users were using it either in deep tanks - see the instructions for mixing up 10.5 gallons - or in a replenishment regime.
If you are interested in dilution E - 1 part concentrate plus 47 parts water - then Jason Brunner's (@JBrunner) Photrio resource for using it 1+49 may be perfect for you: https://www.photrio.com/forum/resources/hc110-made-simple.220/

 

[Certain Exposures]

Thanks, I already mixed 1+47...This link suggests 6.5 minutes for dilution E. 8 minutes seems a good amount longer for slightly weaker solution. What do you think?

http://www.covingtoninnovations.com/hc110/

this is my source for all things HC110.

 

[LFGuy]

The 2023 version of Kodak Alaris ED-BWF says 6 minutes in dilution B.

 

[Certain Exposures]

Also @MattKing (or anyone else with experience), any thoughts on this question about expired black and white film and fresh film in the same batch?

Developing Expired and Fresh film in the same tank - risky? I am hoping for a quick answer.

I doubt there is cause for concern. However, I will ask. One roll of Tri-X expired in the 1960s and the other is a fresh, unexpired roll. I have never developed fresh and expired film in the same tank...is there any risk here? I imagine not. I am using a 1000mL solution of Legacy Pro L110...

www.photrio.com

The 2023 version of Kodak Alaris ED-BWF says 6 minutes in dilution B.

Do you have a link to this document? Is it the most recent published data sheet? The one I linked showed 3.75 minutes for dilution B.

 

[MattKing]

Here is the 2003 datasheet for the film: https://125px.com/docs/film/kodak/f9-Tri-X_Pan.pdf
And here is the 2017 datasheet for the developer: https://125px.com/docs/techpubs/kodak/j24-2017.pdf

 

[MattKing]

Thanks, I already mixed 1+47...

1+47 and 1+49 are functionally identical.
there has been a lot of controversy in the last couple of decades over some of the Kodak times. For a while, they appear to have been recommending development times that would have been likely to lead to less contrast than some might prefer. That may have been due to giving too much weight to minimizing grain.
The film did change over the years.
I'm not sure how much updating has happened on the Covington site and whether or not those changes are reflected there.

 

[Certain Exposures]

The Covington site says the last update was on January 19, 2012.

Kodak does not have a data sheet on their main product page: https://www.kodak.com/en/still-film/product/professional/tri-x-400-film/

Which table do you think fits my canister?

Correction: the notice table above appears in the document and answers my question. I will do JB's suggestion of 8 minutes for 1+47 because presumably it would require more time than 1+31 (dilution B) for 'TX', which is the top table.

The screenshot below is from the 2003 film data sheet. It would be nice to have a 2026 data sheet link from the company:

 

[MattKing]

You aren't likely to see an updated datasheet any time soon. Their production of black and white still films is relatively tiny, and the cost of updating datasheets is quite high, and may require resources that are fully taken up by their motion picture and higher volume colour still film products. My take on it is that the best they are able to do is to devote their limited black and white resources to the constant challenge of adapting to the changes in the constituent component market, with a view toward keeping the current offerings as close as possible to the product that emerged from the most recent revamps near the beginning of the 21st century.

 

[chuckroast]

I know this has come up on forums in the past and I read a bunch of older threads on this, but I still didn't find a definitive answer:

According to the data sheet for Kodak's Tri-X 400 film, the developing time for HC-110 dilution B at 68 degrees Fahrenheit is 3 3/4 minutes. The data sheet goes on to note that:

"Tank-development times shorter than 5 minutes may produce unsatisfactory uniformity"

Unless I'm misinterpreting something, that sounds like a contradiction.

Further, the Massive Dev Chart contains this data for HC-110 dilution B and 400 ISO:

Kodak Tri-X 400 HC-110 B 400 7.5 7.5 68F [notes]
Kodak Tri-X 400 HC-110 B 400 4.5-6 4.5-6 68F [notes]

and it's not clear from the notes why there are two different dev times for ASA 400 dilution B, although they do mention that the 7.5 minute development time is

"taken from a previous version of this film, starting point time should be similar"

The notes for the 4.5-6 minute time say:

"Kodak time of 3.75 mins is considered to be short"

So I'm left a bit confused as to the recommended development time for HC-110, dilution B and Tri-X rated at box speed.

Has anyone ever clarified with Kodak as to why they recommend a dev time of 3 3/4 minutes when their own data sheet indicates that such a short time is not recommended?

I keep extensive notes of my various development successes and failures. According to these notes, my own finding was to expose 400TX at EI 200 and develop HC-110B for 6.8 min @ 68F/20C with agitation every 30 second after and initial continuous agitation of 30 sec.

My initial tests years ago were done with a densitometer and I have had little reason to change them over the years. I have found the Massive Development Chart to largely be so variable and unsubstantiated in practice as to be not terribly useful.

Note that Tri-X did change somewhat over the years and that TXT and TXP were rather different films, so old spec sheets will not be particularly right for the latest incarnation of TXT or 400TX.

 

[LFGuy]

Do you have a link to this document? Is it the most recent published data sheet? The one I linked showed 3.75 minutes for dilution B.

https://www.kodakprofessional.com/sites/default/files/wysiwyg/pro/resources/edbwf_0.pdf

 

[Certain Exposures]

Thanks, everyone! The negatives seem alright at a glance. I will know more once I start to scan them.

I used 1000mL of dilution E at 66 degrees Fahrenheit for 8.5 minutes with Legacy Pro's HC-110 substitute.

 

[Adam W]

I'm late to this thread, but I'll add that I've had fine results with Tri-X, HP5+, and Acros II (all at their respective box speeds) with 1:49 at 20°C for 8 minutes.

 

[Augustus Caesar]

I'm late to this thread, but I'll add that I've had fine results with Tri-X, HP5+, and Acros II (all at their respective box speeds) with 1:49 at 20°C for 8 minutes.

I adjust concentrations of developers so that they yield times of at least 10 minutes.

 

[Kino]

All suggested development times are just that; suggestions. Often, they are good starting points within a range around the manufacturer's official time, but unless you are using exactly the same developer, mixed exactly the same way, with exactly the same water, aged exactly the same with exactly the same agitation/temp times, it's not YOUR development time.

Start somewhere, observe, tweak and arrive at your personal development time either via sensitometry or just how it looks when you scan and or print the negative.

Will it take time, film and effort? Yes, but there is no escaping this; there are far too many variables.

 

[Augustus Caesar]

A "proper" development time depends on your printing set-up. You should start there.