Bloxygen (argon) spray

[Kino]

Been looking for someone to do this for a while. I understand you can use Butane as a liquid chemical preservative, but I'd rather not use flammable gas and investing in a rechargeable cylinder and regulator for Argon was too much.

Just ordered a few cans; anyone else try this?

Bloxygen - Inert Gas Preservation

Save your leftover paints, finishes or food from getting ruined by oxygen or moisture. Simply spray, seal and store for up to 10 years. Never have hardened paint or rubbery finishes ruin your day. Safe for food, coffee, cannabis. Tested by manufacturers. Industry best practice.

www.bloxygen.com

 

[DREW WILEY]

There are wine preservative inert gas canisters too.

 

[Kino]

These are pure Argon; the wine preservatives usually have a mixture of gasses.

Might not matter, but it's only marginally more expensive per spray can.

 

[MattKing]

Paint preservers too:

 

[bewilson]

My innner chemist just got interested.

Looking at https://www.ready.noaa.gov/documents/TutorialX/files/Chem_henry.pdf which shows how much each gas dissolves into water, here are the relative solubilities of some common gasses that aren't acidic nor basic:

Gas Solubility (molar/atm) reactive?
Oxygen 0.0001 YES (so don't use this)
Hydrogen 0.0008 YES
Nitrogen 0.0003 NO
Argon 0.001 NO
Butane 0.001 Maybe (I really don't know here because I don't know the reduction potentials of the developers, but think it's higher than 0.8v)

In using gasses to purge oxygen out of the headpace of a solution, the main consideration is how much dissolves. If you add a very soluble gas over the solution, it will dissolve, creating a vacuum in the headspace. That vacuum will pull air into the bottle, and your developer-preservation plan is foiled. So, avoiding those gasses that will react with your developer (O2 and H2), nitrogen is the next best of the common gasses. Nitrogen also has one MASSIVE advantage over all the other gasses: it's already saturated in the solution! It got there when the water came out of your aerating faucet (provided you didn't boil the water before making your developer).

In the labs I worked in we always used nitrogen to displace oxygen unless we were using a reaction where nitrogen was one of the reactants (like nitrogenase studies).

So, who sells canned nitrogen gas?

P.S. This always works best when you sparge the solution with the headspace preservative, ie. blow the gas deep into the solution. Little red straws for the win.

 

[qqphot]

Nitrogen should be fine for anything, I suppose. But for photo chemicals I've sometimes wondered if Dust-Off (difluoroethane) would be good enough. It's probably a bit more water soluble than you'd want at 0.02g/100mL but I wonder if it's reactive with anything commonly used in photochemistry. I'm unfortunately too lazy to do side by side tests to find out if it impacts development.

 

[sufnturf]

My innner chemist just got interested.

Looking at https://www.ready.noaa.gov/documents/TutorialX/files/Chem_henry.pdf which shows how much each gas dissolves into water, here are the relative solubilities of some common gasses that aren't acidic nor basic:

Gas Solubility (molar/atm) reactive?
Oxygen 0.0001 YES (so don't use this)
Hydrogen 0.0008 YES
Nitrogen 0.0003 NO
Argon 0.001 NO
Butane 0.001 Maybe (I really don't know here because I don't know the reduction potentials of the developers, but think it's higher than 0.8v)

In using gasses to purge oxygen out of the headpace of a solution, the main consideration is how much dissolves. If you add a very soluble gas over the solution, it will dissolve, creating a vacuum in the headspace. That vacuum will pull air into the bottle, and your developer-preservation plan is foiled. So, avoiding those gasses that will react with your developer (O2 and H2), nitrogen is the next best of the common gasses. Nitrogen also has one MASSIVE advantage over all the other gasses: it's already saturated in the solution! It got there when the water came out of your aerating faucet (provided you didn't boil the water before making your developer).

In the labs I worked in we always used nitrogen to displace oxygen unless we were using a reaction where nitrogen was one of the reactants (like nitrogenase studies).

So, who sells canned nitrogen gas?

P.S. This always works best when you sparge the solution with the headspace preservative, ie. blow the gas deep into the solution. Little red straws for the win.

The most commonly used "spray" (in Germany I think) to preserve photographic chemicals was Tetenals “Protectan”.
It can simply be summarised by calling it “expensive dust off” or Propane + Butane.
IMHO it should be safe as long as there’s no fire hazard around and displaces oxygen whilst being heavier than air.

 

[tezzasmall]

Been looking for someone to do this for a while. I understand you can use Butane as a liquid chemical preservative, but I'd rather not use flammable gas and investing in a rechargeable cylinder and regulator for Argon was too much.

Just ordered a few cans; anyone else try this?

Bloxygen - Inert Gas Preservation

Save your leftover paints, finishes or food from getting ruined by oxygen or moisture. Simply spray, seal and store for up to 10 years. Never have hardened paint or rubbery finishes ruin your day. Safe for food, coffee, cannabis. Tested by manufacturers. Industry best practice.

www.bloxygen.com

The most commonly used "spray" (in Germany I think) to preserve photographic chemicals was Tetenals “Protectan”.
It can simply be summarised by calling it “expensive dust off” or Propane + Butane.
IMHO it should be safe as long as there’s no fire hazard around and displaces oxygen whilst being heavier than air.

Some of us on FADU have discussed this problem a few times.

I have used and tried various food and wine preservers, as well as Protectan. The former went wrong in dispensing the gas quite a few times, but the company selling it were very good in replacing a few cans for me.

Protectan worked well, but like the former, it too became expensive long term.

I then read the posts about using butane lighter gas, which is easily found for at least 1/10th the cost, so it became a no brainer. I too worried a little about it being flammable, but no one seems to have ever had a fire problem with it over the many years that it's been used, probably partly because very little is used at a time, so it might be worth a rethink on your part.

As for getting an tank of argon, I also looked at that, and couldn't find a small amount of it, and like you implied, it would be a bit overkill, even though the gas itself appears to be relatively cheap like this, but unless you are a welder using it all the time...

Terry S
UK

 

[Kino]

Some of us on FADU have discussed this problem a few times.

I have used and tried various food and wine preservers, as well as Protectan. The former went wrong in dispensing the gas quite a few times, but the company selling it were very good in replacing a few cans for me.

Protectan worked well, but like the former, it too became expensive long term.

I then read the posts about using butane lighter gas, which is easily found for at least 1/10th the cost, so it became a no brainer. I too worried a little about it being flammable, but no one seems to have ever had a fire problem with it over the many years that it's been used, probably partly because very little is used at a time, so it might be worth a rethink on your part.

As for getting an tank of argon, I also looked at that, and couldn't find a small amount of it, and like you implied, it would be a bit overkill, even though the gas itself appears to be relatively cheap like this, but unless you are a welder using it all the time...

Terry S
UK

Terry,

Thanks for the response.

I have already ordered a couple of cans of the Bloxygen, which cost roughly $14 USD per can including shipment, so I will try them out and see what I think.

I looked into the gasses you can typically recharge at welding supply shops (Argon, Nitrogen, Helium, etc.), but as stated before, the initial investment for tanks and regulators was simply too expensive for my relatively small use.

Just wanted to post to give yet another option to photographers looking for a solution to extending mixed photo chemistry life.

I think what I ordered should last at least a few years, so the price wasn't that great.

 

[ags2mikon]

One advantage to the nitrogen tank and regulator is you can use it for nitrogen burst agitation and airing up your tires. If you do your own HVAC work it is good for purging lines.

 

[warden]

I've been using marbles in amber glass bottles to mechanically keep oxygen out. Is this better/worse/same as using gas?

 

[Kino]

I've been using marbles in amber glass bottles to mechanically keep oxygen out. Is this better/worse/same as using gas?

Both do the same function; I just got tired of cleaning, drying several pounds of marbles.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Depends on whether you've "lost your marbles" or not.

 

[ags2mikon]

You can buy marbles of different sizes from Amazon. That's a lot better than appropating them from the kids. I use small tiny ones for my small bottles and regular sizes for my big bottles. It also helps when mixing, just be gentle to keep from breaking a bottle and losing your marbles.

 

[bdial]

I gave up on marbles when I found they were introducing lots of crud i.e. glass chips into the developer and onto my film. No matter how much I washed them, I still ended up with crud on my film. Then I had a bottle of developer and marbles slip out of my hand and shatter.

Several years ago, I found a nitrogen cylinder for sale that was from a retired nitrogen bust agitation system. I haven’t tried to make a formal test, but some 2 YO D-76 worked fine for the last roll of film I processed.

 

[Patrick Robert James]

I use Butane. I tried Bloxygen but it didn't last long. As in, went to use it and nothing came out after maybe four or five small uses. Not worth it. Butane is a no brainer and it works fine. Glass/butane keeps things for a looooong time.

 

[btaylor]

I tried the marbles thing too- it was awkward. Ended up going with wine bags from Amazon. Easy to use and store. I also use plastic soda bottles, just squeeze out the air and cap. Whatever works for you.

 

[Joel_L]

I've been using Argon for decades but I have a small welding tank of it, last for a couple years ( the tank ). The chemicals last much longer too.

 

[gordrob]

I have a nitrogen burst system so I use the nitrogen to top off bottles or the Finish Preserve Matt mentioned above. I also have a roll of lab plastic that I put over the mouth of bottle to ensure the bottle cap doesn't leak.

 

[Kino]

I use Butane. I tried Bloxygen but it didn't last long. As in, went to use it and nothing came out after maybe four or five small uses. Not worth it. Butane is a no brainer and it works fine. Glass/butane keeps things for a looooong time.

I see what you mean...

Guess I am the archetypal rube who doesn't read the fine print: 1.2 grams of Argon per can. The cans do feel empty and the gas pressure is low.

Live and learn (or do I ever?), I just hate that I could have bought a boat load of Butane for what I paid.

I am sure there are customers who are satisfied with the product and amount, but I don't think I will be a repeat customer.

 

[Tumbles]

I've been using argon for quite some time. I'm not sure how well it works since I haven't done any comparisons.

For dry chemicals that are perishable, I'm planning to get oxygen absorber packets. I have some p-aminophenol that I've stored in a black glass jar with argon for maybe a year or two. It went from white and slightly pink to light tan in color.

Awhile ago p-aminophenol seemed to be totally unavailable, except for this black stuff I got off of ebay. I talked to a chemist friend about recrystallizing it, and he said I should boil the water for 30 minutes before I use it to remove the dissolved gasses. I've been considering doing this for my stock solutions. I'm thinking of pouring the boiled water in a large glass bottle and filling the remaining space with argon to let it cool down to a reasonable temperature before use. As I've read it, gasses will start to dissolve quickly after the water stops boiling.

 

[koraks]

As I've read it, gasses will start to dissolve quickly after the water stops boiling.

They will start to dissolve quickly alright. But the real question is whether the absorption rate and final concentration by the time recrystallization is finished is significant enough. The likely answer is 'not even close'. Personally I'd not even bother boiling the water.

Oxygen solubility in water is around 10mg/l under normal conditions. You can do the math based on:
* solubility of the p-aminophenol and hence how much water you'll need
* molar ratio of the aminophenol to oxygen in the water
* the resulting stoichiometry and thus the maximum amount of aminophenol that will be oxidized in the procedure.
You'll find that the benefit is mostly a cosmetic one.
Which it arguably is to begin with.

I similarly have severe doubts as to the utility of storing dry powders under argon, taking into consideration that it'll be difficult to limit diffusion during handling (open/closing the bottle/jar etc.)

I'd apply some common sense to issues like these. It usually ends up saving a lot of time, money and effort.

 

[Kino]

For dry chemicals that are perishable, I'm planning to get oxygen absorber packets. I

Take care: many of the food preservative oxygen absorber packets are iron-based.