Film Ferrania - Developments from October 2023 onward

[Scott Micciche]

So Dave Bias wouldn't actually be in a position to know what has happened to the company since he left over two years ago....which is long before the change of ownership.

He moved on, yes.

 

[polaromar]

There are places that show Orto in stock, but I assume that is old stock, and not newly replenished. I just shot my first roll of it last week but haven't had time to do any more than that.

Very certain that is the case, I saw one or two places where Orto is out of stock but wasn't replenished.

Tempted to order a couple rolls from Freestyle. If it comes in the new, P33-like packaging as they have on their site, then it's new stock.

 

[Agulliver]

P30 and Orto are in stock at Analogue Wonderland (UK) while P33 is not. I believe this may be new stock but I wouldn't bet my house on it.

 

[Klaus_H]

Filmferrania has reformulated P30. Filmferrania News
Is this film a "real" Ferrania film, or is it something else just packed in boxes by Ferrania?

 

[runswithsizzers]

Filmferrania has reformulated P30. Filmferrania News
Is this film a "real" Ferrania film, or is it something else just packed in boxes by Ferrania?

It is a confusing announcement, due to contradictory statements. First, Ferrania say, "you may find two versions of P30 that differ only in their packaging" -- then they go on to describe two different emulsions, the "original P30 formula" and "MkII" which is "the evolution of the original formula."

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Not sure why they would change it. It was fine the way it was.

 

[runswithsizzers]

Not sure why they would change it. It was fine the way it was.

Ferrania tell you why. With MkII you get:
- smoother tonal transitions
- richer shadow detail
- greater flexibility in both exposure and development
- wider dynamic range
- total creative control

... who would not want all that?

Of course, if you try to define most of these improvements in precise language, all you get is a handful of fog. With the possible exception of "wider dynamic range," I don't think any of these claims can be measured for objective comparison between two films.

What exactly is "richer shadow detail"?
Who does not already have the flexibility to expose their film and develop it any way you want to?
What is it about P30 MkII that gives me "total creative control" in ways that other films do not?

"Smoother tonal transitions" is interesting. I am trying to think this one through...
If you expose to stay on the flat part of the curve (assuming the curve has a flat part), then is it accurate to say the smoothness of the tonal transitions is a function of the slope of the curve? In other words, is it fair to say lower contrast films (less slope) have smoother tonal transitions than higher contrast films (more slope)? Different films do have different roll-off characteristics in toe and shoulder areas, where more gradual curves would give smoother tonal transitions than more abrupt curves, right?

 

[Scott Micciche]

Not sure why they would change it. It was fine the way it was.

It is probably a true pancro 80 ASA film now

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

If that were the only change, then I'm good with that!

 

[Milpool]

If the emulsion is actually different (whether in-house or rebranded resale), funnily enough these improvements make it a less compelling product. After all these Ferrania films are examples of the sort of thing where shortcomings are viewed by buyers as favourable/unique attributes. If P30 becomes more “normal” it competes with other products at a ridiculously high price.

 

[thinkbrown]

I just shot my first roll of p30 last week which based on the packaging is the MkII version. Definitely looks like the photos I've seen online and despite shooting at 50 ISO the shadows are a bit thin, so it seems to behave the way I was led to expect.

 

[albireo]

Not sure why they would change it. It was fine the way it was.

In many 'orthodox' film photography circles and social media/facebook groups (including in Ferrania's country of origin) this film was harshly criticised, vilified even, in the traditionalist fringes of film photography communities (the hardcore darkroom printers) because it was, apparently, impossible to print when exposed/developed by the book (far too contrasty).

I've never used it (though I've used their P33 and Orto films, fine products) but I've read reports that the 'old' P30 had to be exposed at 12 EI or so (e.g. see this moribund forum here - use google translate) and developed for a very short time to be printable on grade II paper. Result, a lot of people took to Ferrania's page to let the company know P30 was essentially worthless.

So one idea is that the company became aware of this feedback and decided to go back to the drawing board.

 

[Milpool]

The less-than-pan sensitization, purported ultra fine grain etc. are things I thought proponents liked about P30. It’s an old fashioned emulsion, relatively speaking. There’s no way it’s going to get a major speed increase without corresponding hits to the properties people liked.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

In many 'orthodox' film photography circles and social media/facebook groups (including in Ferrania's country of origin) this film was harshly criticised, vilified even, by the traditionalist fringe of film photography (the hardcore darkroom printers) because it was, apparently, impossible to print when exposed/developed by the book (far too contrasty).

I've never used it (though I've used their P33 and Orto films, fine products) but I've read reports that the 'old' P30 had to be exposed at 12 EI or so (e.g. see this moribund forum here - use google translate) and developed for a very short time to be printable on grade II paper. Result, a lot of people took to Ferrania's page to let the company know P30 was essentially worthless.

So one idea is that the company became aware of this feedback and decided to go back to the drawing board.

I got excellent, printable negatives at EI 32, and XTol-R. I never thought of it as being useless... Hopefully, they only tweaked the speed, and nothing else.

 

[qqphot]

Regardless of reformulation, it would be encouraging to see signs of activity of any kind from Ferrania! I'd had to see it just become yet another repackaging of Aviphot.

 

[sednoid]

Hold on, they're not reformulating the film now - it already happened a while back, under the old ownership. In this post they're simply telling us how to tell the two versions apart based on the packaging.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Hold on, they're not reformulating the film now - it already happened a while back, under the old ownership. In this post they're simply telling us how to tell the two versions apart based on the packaging.

Then basically there is no change. Thank you for the clarification.

 

[flavio81]

Ferrania tell you why. With MkII you get:
- smoother tonal transitions
- richer shadow detail
- greater flexibility in both exposure and development
- wider dynamic range

Translation: the characteristic curve has a long toe and a good shoulder.
And/or contrast has been lowered.

Contrast doesn't get pumped up with slightly prolonged development = greater flexibility in both exposure and development

long toe = richer shadow detail

lower contrast and shoulder = wider dynamic range

 

[flavio81]

The announcement is absolutely confusing.

Dispatches from Ferrania-P30 vs P30

Hello everyone, as you can imagine, we’re working hard to bring the full range of Ferrania black-and-white products back to market as soon as possible, and new products will follow. We’ll keep you updated on that. In the meantime, for all those still hunting down the last remaining rolls of P30 out

www.filmferrania.com

"we want to clarify that you may find two versions of P30 that differ only in their packaging."

"Differ in the packaging "can be interpreted as "they are the same film"

Ferrania P30 (Cinema): "This is the original P30 formula, the one resurrected in 2016 from Ferrania’s historical documentation. It’s a high-contrast film with low red sensitivity, just like the panchromatic stocks of the 1950s."

Ferrania P30 (MkII):
"This is the evolution of the original formula" = "not the same formula"
"It’s a true modern panchromatic film" = it is not "low red sensitivity" as the other P30 = it is a different film

So the two versions doesn't just "differ in their packaging", they also differ because they have different film.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Translation: the characteristic curve has a long toe and a good shoulder.
And/or contrast has been lowered.

Contrast doesn't get pumped up with slightly prolonged development = greater flexibility in both exposure and development

long toe = richer shadow detail

lower contrast and shoulder = wider dynamic range

I always thought that long toe equals compressed shadows. How can that be richer?

 

[runswithsizzers]

I always thought that long toe equals compressed shadows. How can that be richer?

When talking about money, they say you can't be too rich, but the Bible tells us rich men won't get into heaven until camels can pass through a needle's eye. Desserts can be too rich, but it's hard to say if rich desserts are a good thing or a bad thing. Guess it depends on whether you are a fat puritan or a thin hedonist.

For our purposes, I guess rich shadows are a good thing. I don't know about long toes and well rounded shoulders.

Translation: the characteristic curve has a long toe and a good shoulder.
And/or contrast has been lowered.

Contrast doesn't get pumped up with slightly prolonged development = greater flexibility in both exposure and development

long toe = richer shadow detail

lower contrast and shoulder = wider dynamic range

Thank you for the translation.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

When talking about money, they say you can't be too rich, but the Bible tells us rich men won't get into heaven until camels can pass through a needle's eye. Desserts can be too rich, but it's hard to say if rich desserts are a good thing or a bad thing. Guess it depends on whether you are a fat puritan or a thin hedonist.

For our purposes, I guess rich shadows are a good thing. I don't know about long toes and well rounded shoulders.


Thank you for the translation.

Yes indeed, rich shadows are a good thing...left up to our own interpretation. But...perhaps flavio's definition of rich tone means a darn good black. Rounded shoulders are what I have from being hunched over this bloody laptop for far too long!

 

[sednoid]

The announcement is absolutely confusing.

Dispatches from Ferrania-P30 vs P30

Hello everyone, as you can imagine, we’re working hard to bring the full range of Ferrania black-and-white products back to market as soon as possible, and new products will follow. We’ll keep you updated on that. In the meantime, for all those still hunting down the last remaining rolls of P30 out

www.filmferrania.com

"we want to clarify that you may find two versions of P30 that differ only in their packaging."

"Differ in the packaging "can be interpreted as "they are the same film"

Ferrania P30 (Cinema): "This is the original P30 formula, the one resurrected in 2016 from Ferrania’s historical documentation. It’s a high-contrast film with low red sensitivity, just like the panchromatic stocks of the 1950s."

Ferrania P30 (MkII):
"This is the evolution of the original formula" = "not the same formula"
"It’s a true modern panchromatic film" = it is not "low red sensitivity" as the other P30 = it is a different film

So the two versions doesn't just "differ in their packaging", they also differ because they have different film.

Probably something lost in translation, wouldn't be the first time with them. I think they meant that the versions differ in their packaging but not the name - as in, when you look for P30 you can only distinguish them that way.