Exiting Leica M: what did you go for instead

[Alex Benjamin]

Yup. Sold the M stuff a while back. Mostly shoot 4x5 now, with some 6x6 with a Bronica SQ. I got a Nikon FM2 just to keep my 35mm feet wet, so to speak, but I barely use it. Even when traveling I tend to take the Bronica over the Nikon.

I should add that I subscribe to the idea that your choice of camera — within a format or between formats — depends on the type of photography you want to do, but I'll immediately contradict that statement by saying I also believe that you can do just about any type of photography with any type of camera and film format : documentary photography with a 6x6 TLR or a hand-held 4x5, landscape with a 35mm, portrait with a bulky 6x7, street photography with a 6x9 folder, etc.

The provision for that being that you know your camera and lense(s) extremely well. Meaning being extremely familiar with their strength and limitations — what they will and what they will not give you —, as no camera is perfect.

I loved my Leicas. Had an M2 and an M6. But honestly, today, I cannot tell the difference between photos made with the Leica and thoses made with the Nikon FM2. Only thing I can tell for each is which photos are good (few) and which are bad (lots). Same goes with the 6x6, the 6x7 (had a Pentax 67 for a while) and the 4x5: some good, lots of bad.

And by "good" I mean they show what I have (or had) in mind. That's all that matters. And in all these cases the format used helped reach a point where I can envision getting a photograph that would show what I had in mind.

 

[MattKing]

Is change for change's sake not enough of a reason?

Sure.
But why would you ask others?
Are you looking for something in what others do, to justify to yourself what you don't understand about your own decisions?
Or do you just love to talk about cameras, rather than cameras and their photographic uses?
If the former, then a camera collectors forum is probably a better place than Photrio.

 

[Cholentpot]

Sure.
But why would you ask others?
Are you looking for something in what others do, to justify to yourself what you don't understand about your own decisions?
Or do you just love to talk about cameras, rather than cameras and their photographic uses?
If the former, then a camera collectors forum is probably a better place than Photrio.

Is this place not a camera collectors forum?

 

[MattKing]

Is this place not a camera collectors forum?

No it is a failed 12 step group - Camera Hoarders Anonymous .....

 

[GregY]

I should add that I subscribe to the idea that your choice of camera — within a format or between formats — depends on the type of photography you want to do, but I'll immediately contradict that statement

Alex in some ways you're objectively correct, yet there's the element, like choosing a musical instrument or finding a girlfriend.....some things are just a good fit...and are transparent. In LF for me Deardorff over Linhof, in MF for whatever reason,Rolleiflex over RB67...in 35mm Leica rangefinder without extra viewfinder lines or meter.... fits like a glove.

 

[Chuck1]

No it is a failed 12 step group - Camera Hoarders Anonymous .....

Bunch of enablers

 

[Alex Benjamin]

Alex in some ways you're objectively correct, yet there's the element, like choosing a musical instrument or finding a girlfriend.....some things are just a good fit...and are transparent. In LF for me Deardorff over Linhof, in MF for whatever reason,Rolleiflex over RB67...in 35mm Leica rangefinder without extra viewfinder lines or meter.... fits like a glove.
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I agree. No 35mm camera has ever felt as comfortable to me as an M2, and as I'm struggling to figure out the Canham 4x5 camera I borrowed from a friend, I dearly regret selling my Linhof back when. Spending a few month with a TLR drove me nuts, while the Bronica SQ cathers to my every 6x6 need.

But my point was that no matter how comfortable the M2 was, I cannot make the difference between the good photos from the Leica camera and the good photos from the FM2, the good photo from the Mamiya C220 and the good photo from the Bronica SQ. No noticeable difference in the result.

You can't say the same thing if you are talking about going from a guitar to an oboe. Different sound, different repertoire, different results.

 

[GregY]

I agree. No 35mm camera has ever felt as comfortable to me as an M2, and as I'm struggling to figure out the Canham 4x5 camera I borrowed from a friend, I dearly regret selling my Linhof back when. Spending a few month with a TLR drove me nuts, while the Bronica SQ cathers to my every 6x6 need.

But my point was that no matter how comfortable the M2 was, I cannot make the difference between the good photos from the Leica camera and the good photos from the FM2, the good photo from the Mamiya C220 and the good photo from the Bronica SQ. No noticeable difference in the result.

You can't say the same thing if you are talking about going from a guitar to an oboe. Different sound, different repertoire, different results.

Does the $$ value between the M2 and an FM2 make a difference in your life? With musical instruments i wasn't alluding to completely different instruments...but between a passable guitar and a '30s Martin for example....that feels comfortable like a pair of worn in jeans, & inspires your playing....

 

[chuckroast]

Does the $$ value between the M2 and an FM2 make a difference in your life? With musical instruments i wasn't alluding to completely different instruments...but between a passable guitar and a '30s Martin for example....that feels comfortable like a pair of worn in jeans, & inspires your playing....

I play equally poorly on all my vintage instruments.

 

[Cholentpot]

Bunch of enablers

I just found a camera I've been looking for forever on ebay at an incredible price. Untested but ya know, sometimes you just have to wing it. If it works it'll be one of the greatest deals I've paid for.

Still cheaper than collecting cars.

 

[Don_ih]

ut my point was that no matter how comfortable the M2 was, I cannot make the difference between the good photos from the Leica camera and the good photos from the FM2

My experience is the good photos are in the taking, not necessarily the results. And I'm more at home with a rangefinder than an slr. I hate focusing on an object.

 

[Alex Benjamin]

Does the $$ value between the M2 and an FM2 make a difference in your life? With musical instruments i wasn't alluding to completely different instruments...but between a passable guitar and a '30s Martin for example....that feels comfortable like a pair of worn in jeans, & inspires your playing....

I was trained as a pianist. I played Schubert's B-flat and C major ("Reliquie") sonatas a few times in recital. Sometimes you'd get a Steinway, sometimes a Fazzioli, sometimes a Yamaha. The hope was always to get enough time beforehand to get to know the piano — know what it can and can't give you — to get Schubert to sing the way he needs to sing. And yes, sometimes one of these pianos naturally and immediately felt comfortable like a pair or worn-in jeans and inspired my playing... for the Schubert. Did not mean it worked as well for the Ravel that followed.

 

[gbroadbridge]

I also believe that you can do just about any type of photography with any type of camera they will not give you —, as no camera is perfect.

You can use a wrench to bang in a nail, but a hammer is a better tool for the job.

Know your tools and apply the correct one to the task at hand.

 

[MattKing]

All of these latter posts emphasize how important the connection is between the photographer, the camera equipment and the results.
If you take the results out of the equation, then the equipment becomes nothing more than a decoration or a collector's piece.
But if you take the photographer out of the equation, and try to substitute another photographer instead, there is a discontinuity to the equation - one photographer's experience is of little value to another's.

 

[Alex Benjamin]

You can use a wrench to bang in a nail, but a hammer is a better tool for the job.

Know your tools and apply the correct one to the task at hand.

I don't think the hammer vs wrench distinction applies, as there are no "correct" tools.

You can do great documentary photography with a 35mm, a TLR, a Holga or a hand-held 4x5 (Chris Killip comes to mind in that last case).

The one fundamental part is "know your tool".

All of these latter posts emphasize how important the connection is between the photographer, the camera equipment and the results.

Yes, but I would add "the thing photographed" to your equation, as it is part of the process. And any change, even the slightest, in one of these four variables, has a potential impact on the other three.

If you take the results out of the equation, then the equipment becomes nothing more than a decoration or a collector's piece.
But if you take the photographer out of the equation, and try to substitute another photographer instead, there is a discontinuity to the equation - one photographer's experience is of little value to another's.

I shared my experience with OP because that's what he asked (my mother taught me to be polite that way ). But I am aware that my experiece can only be anecdotal to OP, as my passage from Leica M to 4x5 format is the result of a complex series of events and circumstances—including 4 or 5 years without shooting a single photo—which only belongs to me, to my life, to my relationship with photography, to my relationship with the world around me.

The "result" is the expression of all this things, and you are right in stating that without it—without the conversation being about photography, i.e., a thing photographed and the photograph of that thing—we're only left with sterile gear talk.

But then, unless I'm mistaken, OP has always been very secretive about the who, why, what, where and when of his photographic practice, interests and experience.

 

[MattKing]

It occurs to me that Photrio is actually better suited to the related question: "For those who have in the past stopped using/lost/sold their Leica M equipment, what if anything do you miss about it, and how, if at all, has your photography been impacted?"

 

[Cholentpot]

I was trained as a pianist. I played Schubert's B-flat and C major ("Reliquie") sonatas a few times in recital. Sometimes you'd get a Steinway, sometimes a Fazzioli, sometimes a Yamaha. The hope was always to get enough time beforehand to get to know the piano — know what it can and can't give you — to get Schubert to sing the way he needs to sing. And yes, sometimes one of these pianos naturally and immediately felt comfortable like a pair or worn-in jeans and inspired my playing... for the Schubert. Did not mean it worked as well for the Ravel that followed.

Playing someone else's instrument is like running in someone else's shoes.

When I'm working I have my cameras set up just so. I can't just hand it off to someone and say 'here, snap a few photos' film or digital. If I'm filling in at a gig last second I need a few minutes to dial in the instrument and amp they left for me. No, I can't just jump in willy nilly. I mean I can but it'll be uncomfortable. Let me at least adjust the strap and volume.

 

[Prest_400]

Is change for change's sake not enough of a reason?

It's more of an ad nauseam ad infinitum situation. IYKYK. A catch 22 that never resolves.

Are you looking for something in what others do, to justify to yourself what you don't understand about your own decisions?

As of contributing to the topic:
Just throwing it out from what I've been seeing from a couple pros: Contax G2. One vouched for it online and the other brought it up when we chatted. Sold some other backup cameras for a G2 and to use for more personal work. RF but with AF. Maybe a Hexar AF would also fill that gap.
I'm a medium format shooter and look up to the RFs as they save weight and volume, but the travel friendly high performance (modern) cameras go for much of a premium and have been valued higher and higher the last years. Otherwise I am not so much that into the RF spirit as the parallax, framing difference, no DoF, etc, does compromise the end result.

 

[warden]

It's more of an ad nauseam ad infinitum situation. IYKYK. A catch 22 that never resolves.


As of contributing to the topic:
Just throwing it out from what I've been seeing from a couple pros: Contax G2. One vouched for it online and the other brought it up when we chatted. Sold some other backup cameras for a G2 and to use for more personal work. RF but with AF. Maybe a Hexar AF would also fill that gap.
I'm a medium format shooter and look up to the RFs as they save weight and volume, but the travel friendly high performance (modern) cameras go for much of a premium and have been valued higher and higher the last years. Otherwise I am not so much that into the RF spirit as the parallax, framing difference, no DoF, etc, does compromise the end result.

A G2 is a great choice for rangefinder benefits without manual focus costs.

 

[chuckroast]

Playing someone else's instrument is like running in someone else's shoes.

When I'm working I have my cameras set up just so. I can't just hand it off to someone and say 'here, snap a few photos' film or digital. If I'm filling in at a gig last second I need a few minutes to dial in the instrument and amp they left for me. No, I can't just jump in willy nilly. I mean I can but it'll be uncomfortable. Let me at least adjust the strap and volume.

Concert pianists, pretty much by definition, play "someone else's instrument" when in performance. They manage just fine

 

[John Wiegerink]

If I were to buy a 35mm camera tomorrow it would be a Contax G2 with the 21mm lens and finder. I really like my G1 and have the 28mm, 45mm and 90mm for that. But I'm not buying a 35mm since I don't use or shoot 35mm that much at all. Had several Leica M's, screw mounts, both Canon and Leica, Konica Hexar and I will take a Contax G2 (or even a G1) over all of those. That's for my type shooting anyway.

 

[Cholentpot]

Concert pianists, pretty much by definition, play "someone else's instrument" when in performance. They manage just fine

Yet they're as picky about things as anyone else is. Position, tuning, intonation, manufacture are all discussed before the musician steps up to the piano. I don't think anyone is playing one cold either. Unless they're super trusting the musician will want to see what the piano does and doesn't do before they perform with it. If a concert pianist had the ability to haul their own personal piano around with them they'd do it.

 

[tcolgate]

My experience is the good photos are in the taking, not necessarily the results. And I'm more at home with a rangefinder than an slr. I hate focusing on an object

One thing rangefinder folk never seem concerned about is inability to preview DoF. DoF is a useful compositional tool and without a through the lens view, you're just guessing. That doesn't matter for a lot of use cases, but it is still a trade off.

 

[skahde]

One thing rangefinder folk never seem concerned about is inability to preview DoF. DoF is a useful compositional tool and without a through the lens view, you're just guessing. That doesn't matter for a lot of use cases, but it is still a trade off.

As much as prefer the SLR-concept for controlled compositions, the actual appearance of the finshed image is often still surprising and the stopped-down image on the ground glass gave only a rough impression. With experience, as you learn to know your tools, the lack of DOF-preview becomes less relevant.

 

[warden]

Yet they're as picky about things as anyone else is. Position, tuning, intonation, manufacture are all discussed before the musician steps up to the piano. I don't think anyone is playing one cold either. Unless they're super trusting the musician will want to see what the piano does and doesn't do before they perform with it. If a concert pianist had the ability to haul their own personal piano around with them they'd do it.

I'm working with a classical pianist now and trying to make sure the right piano (preferably grand Yamaha as he is sponsored by them) arrives on time and is tuned the day before. It's worth the effort but takes some work. He's a super nice guy but pianists have strong preferences just like everyone else, of course.